Note on chords

[Pt]

The simple form of a chord is a triad or 3 notes consisting of the
1st, 3rd and 5th notes of the scale.
(there is a diad which is two notes played together but I do not
consider this as a chord).

A triad is 1, 3, 5 notes of the scale.
A 7th chord is 1, 3, 5, 7 notes of the scale.
A 9th chord is 1, 3, 5, 7, 9 notes of the scale.
An 11th chord is 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11 notes of the scale.
A 13th chord is 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13 notes of the scale.

Looking at this you will see that it is difficult to play all the
notes in an 11th chord and impossible to play all the notes of a 13th
chord on a guitar.
The most you notes you can play at once are 6 because the guitar has 6
strings.
A 13th chord has 7 notes in it.

The problem is that most music theory is written for a piano.
You can play up to 10 notes at once on a piano.

This is where a guitar becomes a unique instrument.
When playing 5 note or more chords you will often not play every note
in the chord.

And often when you hold down 6 strings on a guitar you are actually
playing some of the same notes twice but an octave apart.

How do you know what and how many notes to play for a chord?

This should be an interesting thread.

Pt

[Chess Player]

Post by Pt
The simple form of a chord is a triad or 3 notes consisting of the
1st, 3rd and 5th notes of the scale.
(there is a diad which is two notes played together but I do not
consider this as a chord).
A triad is 1, 3, 5 notes of the scale.
A 7th chord is 1, 3, 5, 7 notes of the scale.
A 9th chord is 1, 3, 5, 7, 9 notes of the scale.
An 11th chord is 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11 notes of the scale.
A 13th chord is 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13 notes of the scale.

<snip>
We've just spent how long now saying that a 7th chord is 1, 3, 5, b7 and you
still haven't figured it out yet!!! Please Pat, don't help with the theory,
it's not helping.<G>

[Roger E. Blumberg]

Post by Chess Player

Post by Pt
The simple form of a chord is a triad or 3 notes consisting of the
1st, 3rd and 5th notes of the scale.
(there is a diad which is two notes played together but I do not
consider this as a chord).
A triad is 1, 3, 5 notes of the scale.
A 7th chord is 1, 3, 5, 7 notes of the scale.
A 9th chord is 1, 3, 5, 7, 9 notes of the scale.
An 11th chord is 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11 notes of the scale.
A 13th chord is 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13 notes of the scale.

<snip>
We've just spent how long now saying that a 7th chord is 1, 3, 5, b7 and you
still haven't figured it out yet!!! Please Pat, don't help with the theory,
it's not helping.<G>

well, to be fair, he was meaning generic "how many tones", in 3rds, per
chord, disregarding specific families and formula details, Major, minor,
Dominant, altered, etc. So, R, 3, 5, 7 is the generic discription or any
seventh chord -- then add the details, flats and sharps, dropped tones,
inversions, as needed, etc. It might have been better (even more generic) to
say "notes above the scale _degree_" rather than "the scale". But as is, R,
3, 5, 7 _is_ the correct formula for stock seventh chord "of the scale",
meaning above the _tonic_ of any (The) Major scale (is a Major 7th chord).

By convention or habit we might associate or interpret "seventh chord" to
mean "Dominant 7th" unless otherwise stated, but it's after the fact and
might be jumping the gun (with beginners).

Roger

[First Alternate]

Post by Pt
How do you know what and how many notes to play for a chord?

You use your ears and mind.
If it sounds right, it is right.

[Mike C.]

This is possibly one of the most overused statements in music. I hate to
hear people say this, as not everything that sounds "right" is the best
choice.

In "Stairway To Heaven", the last chord is FMajor, right? Sounds right to
most people. No more questions need to be asked, right? Well, add in the "E"
note, making it FMaj7:

e---0---
B---1---
G---2---
D---3---
A---3---
E---x---

Hmmm, sounds better. But how can that be? The other chord sounds "right".
How can this chord be "more right"?

If you play a chord with no root, does it sound "right"? Probably not, if
you play it by itself. However, in the context of a tune, does this sound
good as the IV chord in a blues:

e---x---
B---5---
G---4---
D---5---
A---4---
E---x---

Sure it does. It's A9 (which is an extension of A7, BTW), with no root in
the chord. This works as the IV chord in a blues in the key of E. The root
of the chord is a note that can almost always be left out. Did your ear or
mind hear that? I would bet not, but it certainly works.

The important notes of a chord are the ones that determine the function of
the chord. The 3rd of the chord is important to tell the listener if the
chord is major or minor. The 7th of the chord tells the listener if the
chord has dominant function or tonic function. All other notes are less
important. The 3rd and 7th notes of a chord are labelled "guide tones" for
this reason. Everything else is just color notes. The ear hears the root of
the chord, as well as the 5th, if the guidetones are played correctly. The
upper tension notes, i.e. 9, 11, and 13 are color notes that don't determine
function. If these notes are required, it would be because they are in the
melody and it is important that the accompanist not alter them.

In reality, the only notes that are required are the 3rd and 7th. In a more
composed way, the 3rd and 7th are required along with whatever notes are
labelled, such as the 3rd, 7th, and 13th in a "E13" chord, or the 3rd, 7th,
and 9th in an "A9" chord.
--
Mike C.
http://mikecrutcher.com
"As much as I love music, I never really thought it was my life. I thought
it was the vehicle I used to express my life" - Herbie Mann

Post by First Alternate

Post by Pt
How do you know what and how many notes to play for a chord?

You use your ears and mind.
If it sounds right, it is right.

[First Alternate]

Don't know about "Stairway" as I'm probably the only guitarist who never
played it, or cared to.

Your take on whether or not a phrase is overused is likewise of no interest
to me and does not diminish it's veracity. We are in the business of
creating pleasing sounds; theory is a means to that end and is not an end in
itself. Therefore if it sounds right to me, that's the way I'm going to
play it.

[First Alternate]

Looking at the thread this moring, I see my reply as harsher than I
intended.

As I understand Mike, there is wrong and right, but there is also better.
One song I have played almost since the day it was written is Gordon
Lightfoot's "Early Moring Rain," the first two chords of which are G and D.
In their arrangement, however, Peter Paul and Mary made it G and Bm. I like
this better and that's the way I play it. Neither is wrong but one, to my
ear, is better.

[Mike C.]

And that's a perfect example. If you hadn't heard Peter, Paul, and Mary's
version, you would never have realized that a Bm was available as a
substitute for D. You would have considered G and D as being "right", and
never questioned it.

Learning theory gives you more tools to work with. Stumbling around and
saying "this sounds right" is counterproductive.
--
Mike C.
http://mikecrutcher.com
"As much as I love music, I never really thought it was my life. I thought
it was the vehicle I used to express my life" - Herbie Mann

Post by First Alternate
Looking at the thread this moring, I see my reply as harsher than I
intended.
As I understand Mike, there is wrong and right, but there is also better.
One song I have played almost since the day it was written is Gordon
Lightfoot's "Early Moring Rain," the first two chords of which are G and D.
In their arrangement, however, Peter Paul and Mary made it G and Bm. I like
this better and that's the way I play it. Neither is wrong but one, to my
ear, is better.

[First Alternate]

If you hadn't heard Peter, Paul, and Mary's

Post by Mike C.
version, you would never have realized that a Bm was available as a
substitute for D. You would have considered G and D as being "right", and
never questioned it.

You don't know that.

Post by Mike C.
Learning theory gives you more tools to work with.

Agree - just not the only tool.

Post by Mike C.
Stumbling around and
saying "this sounds right" is counterproductive.

Disagree. It is a learning tool.

I know several people who play various instruments only as well as their
last lesson. They have never experimented, never tried to get a phrase by
ear, never taken a chance. I want to play with musicians who have "stumbled
around", gotten it wrong and learned from the experience. Always hitting
the right notes comes from interpreting the dots and lines and knowing how
it's all organized. Tone, texture and expression are the result of
something more, maybe even stumbling around.

[Mike C.]

Good luck reinventing the wheel. I'm done. If you come across any of my
students, don't be surprised when they can play circles around you.

You're just citing more empty reasons to be lazy and not learn anything.
--
Mike C.
http://mikecrutcher.com
"As much as I love music, I never really thought it was my life. I thought
it was the vehicle I used to express my life" - Herbie Mann

Post by Mike C.
If you hadn't heard Peter, Paul, and Mary's

Post by Mike C.
version, you would never have realized that a Bm was available as a
substitute for D. You would have considered G and D as being "right", and
never questioned it.

You don't know that.

Post by Mike C.
Learning theory gives you more tools to work with.

Agree - just not the only tool.

Post by Mike C.
Stumbling around and
saying "this sounds right" is counterproductive.

Disagree. It is a learning tool.
I know several people who play various instruments only as well as their
last lesson. They have never experimented, never tried to get a phrase by
ear, never taken a chance. I want to play with musicians who have "stumbled
around", gotten it wrong and learned from the experience. Always hitting
the right notes comes from interpreting the dots and lines and knowing how
it's all organized. Tone, texture and expression are the result of
something more, maybe even stumbling around.

[First Alternate]

Post by Mike C.
Good luck reinventing the wheel. I'm done.

There's your problem. You've mapped your world, there's nothing left to
learn.

Post by Mike C.
If you come across any of my
students, don't be surprised when they can play circles around you.

It's the content of those circles that matters, not the mere fact that they
exist. There will always be people who will play circles around any of us,
but as to who exactly can play circles around me, again you can't know that.
You don't know what I've learned, you just seem to be irritated that I've
done much of it on my own and you're lashing out.

Post by Mike C.
You're just citing more empty reasons to be lazy and not learn anything.

I reinvent the wheel, yet I'm lazy? Aside from the fact that the
reinvention is fun, my empty reasons spell the difference between last chair
cello and Yo-Yo Ma. I'm not talking about not learning anything, I'm
talking about learning more, much more. That you can't grasp that tells me
all I need to know about you as a teacher.

I've made my point on this thread, you can say what you want. The beginners
can make their own choice - if their teachers so allow.

[Mike C.]

It has nothing to do with mapping my world. What you don't understand is the
time that I've taken fumbling around and then the time I've taken learning
from others. Trying to reinvent the wheel is fumbling around, playing with
the guitar, not playing the guitar. I don't care what you say, that's lazy.
It's an immature attitude toward music and actually shows a much more closed
mind than you'd ever find in me. Learning theory and taking in what
musicians and scholars before me have discovered is to say that there is
enough music out there that would make it impossible for me to discover on
my own just fumbling on my guitar.

You statement about "there's nothing left to learn" is false, inappropriate,
uncalled for, and ignorant. I learn more about music every time I teach a
lesson, among other things. You have no reason to think that I have such an
attitude. However, I very obviously *do* have a boatload more of experience
than you do, and can tell the difference between someone who is actually
trying to learn and someone who is spinning their wheels in a delusional
musical journey.

Would you suggest that someone new to speaking and reading just make things
up and try making noises, using only the noises that sound good to him/her?
I can remember thinking that I didn't need all these rules about sentence
construction and parts of speech; I was immature back then.

Do you want to bet I don't know about what you've learned? Given all the
people who "learn on their own", along with the countless students that I've
taught, and the countless students that I've learn alongside, it's pretty
obvious that it's pretty close to impossible to learn in a vacuum. Are you
trying to tell me that Yo Yo Ma learned in a vacuum and doesn't know music
theory?

Your statement about "allowing students to learn" is ludicrous. You've
obviously had some type of bad experience with a teacher, or heard from some
LaRoc-like character. Music has been around for thousands of years and been
developing for as long, similar to how language has developed. There is
always room for learning, no matter how much we learn. However, rejecting
what others have learned, developed, and discovered before us is a
particular pretentious attitude that assumes one can learn more by oneself
than from others who have experienced the growing pains and the hurdles of
learning music. Why even come here if you don't want to learn from others?
--
Mike C.
http://mikecrutcher.com
"As much as I love music, I never really thought it was my life. I thought
it was the vehicle I used to express my life" - Herbie Mann

Post by First Alternate

Post by Mike C.
Good luck reinventing the wheel. I'm done.

There's your problem. You've mapped your world, there's nothing left to
learn.

Post by Mike C.
If you come across any of my
students, don't be surprised when they can play circles around you.

It's the content of those circles that matters, not the mere fact that they
exist. There will always be people who will play circles around any of us,
but as to who exactly can play circles around me, again you can't know that.
You don't know what I've learned, you just seem to be irritated that I've
done much of it on my own and you're lashing out.

Post by Mike C.
You're just citing more empty reasons to be lazy and not learn anything.

I reinvent the wheel, yet I'm lazy? Aside from the fact that the
reinvention is fun, my empty reasons spell the difference between last chair
cello and Yo-Yo Ma. I'm not talking about not learning anything, I'm
talking about learning more, much more. That you can't grasp that tells me
all I need to know about you as a teacher.
I've made my point on this thread, you can say what you want. The beginners
can make their own choice - if their teachers so allow.

[Doug Cunningly]

Post by Mike C.
And that's a perfect example. If you hadn't heard Peter, Paul, and Mary's
version, you would never have realized that a Bm was available as a
substitute for D. You would have considered G and D as being "right", and
never questioned it.
Learning theory gives you more tools to work with. Stumbling around and
saying "this sounds right" is counterproductive.

or hedge it and play a Bm7...

[Perry Domzella]

Post by Doug Cunningly

Post by Mike C.
And that's a perfect example. If you hadn't heard Peter, Paul, and Mary's
version, you would never have realized that a Bm was available as a
substitute for D. You would have considered G and D as being "right", and
never questioned it.
Learning theory gives you more tools to work with. Stumbling around and
saying "this sounds right" is counterproductive.

or hedge it and play a Bm7...

Yeah, Doug. Or... double-hedge it and call it D6/B <G>

[Doug Cunningly]

Post by Perry Domzella

Post by Doug Cunningly

Post by Mike C.
And that's a perfect example. If you hadn't heard Peter, Paul, and
Mary's version, you would never have realized that a Bm was available
as a substitute for D. You would have considered G and D as being
"right", and never questioned it.
Learning theory gives you more tools to work with. Stumbling around
and saying "this sounds right" is counterproductive.

or hedge it and play a Bm7...

Yeah, Doug. Or... double-hedge it and call it D6/B <G>

same thing... I just meant that sometimes a D works and sometimes a Bm
works but sometimes a Bm7 or D6 just nails it. It pays to play a bit...

[Roger E. Blumberg]

Post by Pt
The simple form of a chord is a triad or 3 notes consisting of the
1st, 3rd and 5th notes of the scale.
(there is a diad which is two notes played together but I do not
consider this as a chord).
A triad is 1, 3, 5 notes of the scale.
A 7th chord is 1, 3, 5, 7 notes of the scale.
A 9th chord is 1, 3, 5, 7, 9 notes of the scale.
An 11th chord is 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11 notes of the scale.
A 13th chord is 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13 notes of the scale.
Looking at this you will see that it is difficult to play all the
notes in an 11th chord and impossible to play all the notes of a 13th
chord on a guitar.
The most you notes you can play at once are 6 because the guitar has 6
strings.
A 13th chord has 7 notes in it.
The problem is that most music theory is written for a piano.
You can play up to 10 notes at once on a piano.
This is where a guitar becomes a unique instrument.
When playing 5 note or more chords you will often not play every note
in the chord.
And often when you hold down 6 strings on a guitar you are actually
playing some of the same notes twice but an octave apart.
How do you know what and how many notes to play for a chord?
This should be an interesting thread.
Pt

typically, some quick rules of thumb, to reduce voicings to their absolute
essentials, you can:

- drop the 5th (if it isn't altered i.e. #5 or b5, hence too important to
the chord)
- drop the root
- for ninth chords you can add9 (triad add9 with no 7th), drop 5th or root,
or do sus2 (drops almost everthing ;') e.g. R, 2, 5 or R, 5, 9).
- to add the 11th (same as 4th) you might drop the 3rd and add 4 (is sus 4),
also drop 5th or root
- for 13th chords you can use 7/6 (no 9th or 11th), or drop 5th, or drop
root . . . ya-da ya-da

in general, drop 5th or/and root if needed, and any altered 5th (b5/#5) or
altered extension, like b9/#9, #11, b13 would be kept.

once you get a complete list or grasp of possible reductions you can also
study voicings for ukulele or mandolin (both having only 4 functional
strings hence notes possible) and see how they do what they do. How do you
play a 13th chord on a ukulele, what tones get dropped? Baritone Ukulele is
tuned the same way as the highest 4 strings of a guitar.

that isn't exhaustive, but it's a start. [Mike C. has probably covered this
in detail a past thread and will probably repost it or fill in any blanks.]
Extended chords in general (6, 7, 9, 11, 13) can be reduced as low as the
base triad or base 7th chord and the chords will still work, as a sketch
outline, in other words _if_ you conceptualized these as "extended" chords
just remove the exentions back closer to where you started.

You can also think of seventh chords as upper and lower triads and play the
upper triad only (let's say). This is how the Dom7 chord (true V7 of the
key, like G7 of key C Major) actually works. It's actually incorporating the
diminished triad built on the 7th degree (leading tone) of Major as it's
"upper triad" or highest 3 tones. Much of the "tension", desire to resolve,
resides there, that "leading tone" root movement of the chords B-C, vii°-I
is (part of) the essence of V7-I, that's the secret (or one of them). So
instead of GBDF use only BDF (the upper dim triad).

Another part of the secret of the true dominant 7th chord is that there's
also the interval of a tri-tone contained with in it, between it's 3rd and
7th, B-F. In and of itself the tri-tone interval, 6 semitones wide, is
dissonant or "unstable", tense (creates tension that wants resolution or
restfullness, concord, stability). But this is not just any tritone. You
have to think of it in context of the particular key, say C Major, and the
true Dominant 7th chord of the key of C, is G7.

First, consider what makes "Major" Major. First and formost it's the 3rd
interval, the Major 3rd. The Major 3rd of C is E. So in the key of C Major,
C and E are where we want to resolve to ultimately, the end of the
progression and defining the sence of the key or tonality, a particular
tonic and a particular flavor, _Major_ flavor. Now go back to the B-F
tritone of the G7 chord. It just so happens that those two notes can resolve
beutifully to tones C and E (the ones that will best define our key C Major,
it's tonic triad). If you remember, the C Major scale has two spots, two
sets of neighboring scale tones that only have 1 semitone distance between
them: EF and BC. Those minor 2nd intervals, if played as a small chord or
even as melody (one frets distance) are very tense, dissonant. You know that
if you play a "wrong" note you can usually "fix it" by using the tone one
semitone away, higher or lower. So just like the tritone, minor 2nds are
also dissonant and want resolving. So there are many tensions and their
resolutions that will be at play that get resolved when you go V7-I in a
Major key. At any rate, here's how the tritone interval B-F in the G7 (V7
chord) gets resolved in the key of C Major:

B-> C E <-F

this is called "step-wise contrary motion", one note is resolving _up_ a
semitone (B up to C), the other is resolving _down_ a semitone (F down to
E). And in both cases the tones are moving to a nearest "scale-step" natural
to the scale (which happen to be only semitone steps away in this case).

C E, of course are part of the C Major triad CEG (it's root and 3rd), the I
chord (home) of the key.

you can play this resolution, and _see_ and hear the contrary motion, like
this:

xx_9x6x B F
xx10x5x C E


note that all of these same key tensions/resolutions also occure, are
present, just by using the leading tone triad of C Major, B diminished, B
vii°, rather than the full G V7, Dominant 7th of C Major.


Sorry, I got carried away, but that's a really fundamental bit, the V7-I
resolution and the basic observed pattern that then gets reused in
"unnatural" situations, by altering chord tones to achieve the same effect
somewhere else, almost anywhere else you might want. This is how/why you get
cycles in 5ths, progressions of V7's, V of V of V etc, creating secondary
dominants and Dom7ths, V7 of V7 of I, etc -- even though most of the V7s
(secondary V7s) do not occure "naturally" to the harmonized scale (chords
built of thirds naturally occuring with the scale and upon each degree of
the scale).

Understand though that all this stuff is man made theory, and comparatively
recent theory too (a couple few hundred years at best), a set of subjective
preferences and common ways of explaining or justifying it.

Also remember that a singer or any other instrument present can carry one of
more notes of any chord (or melody line notes), even the most key definer
tones of the given chord. So there's many factors to concider when reducing
chords to what _you_ need to be playing.

You could apply the above principle (upper and lower chords) further too (to
achieve a reduced tone-set), e.g. a ninth chord could be seen as upper and
lower seventh chords (if you had to or wanted to). Drop the root of a Dom9
and you have a half-dim 7 chord (R, b3, b5, b7 if reconed from the new
lowest pitched tone up) rooted a M3rd higher than the original dom9 chord.
It's just another way of thinking about or approaching reduction to
essentials, suggesting or implying an expected or intended pattern.

Roger

[Roger E. Blumberg]

Post by Roger E. Blumberg
you can play this resolution, and _see_ and hear the contrary motion, like
xx_9x6x B F
xx10x5x C E

here's another way, easier to finger, to play those intervals, that
resolution:

x23xxx = BF
x32xxx = CE

Roger

[Roger E. Blumberg]

Post by Roger E. Blumberg

Post by Roger E. Blumberg
you can play this resolution, and _see_ and hear the contrary motion, like
xx_9x6x B F
xx10x5x C E

here's another way, easier to finger, to play those intervals, that
x23xxx = BF
x32xxx = CE
Roger

in case you don't get around to it, experimenting with that principle, those
resolutions, here's something that shouldn't be missed.

In C Major, do this progression I-IV-V-iv, but just the harmonized natural
3rds of the scale (rather than the full triads), but before each chord of
the progression (proper), insert the appropriate tri-tone V7 fragment.

so it would be:

x23xxx = BF (V7's tri-tone)
x32xxx = CE (I)

xx23xx = (tri-tone)
xx32xx = FA (IV)

xx45xx = (tri-tone)
xx54xx = GB (V)

xx67xx = (tri-tone)
xx75xx = AC (vi)


and then, a I-ii-iii-IV progression in similar fashion, ascending harmonized
scale but inserting tri-tone intervals as before -- this one is just moving
up the lowest two strings:

x23xxx = BF (V7's tri-tone)
x32xxx = CE (I)


x45xxx =
x53xxx = DF (ii)

x67xxx =
x75xxx = EG (iii)

x78xxx =
x87xxx = FA (IV)

it's an old trick, and a very minimal (reduced voicing) solution -- but
fabulous, no?

to descend either of those progressions just omit the inserted leading
tri-tones -- so you'd be playing just the harmonized thirds of the
progression.

Intervals rule! ;')
Roger

[Roger E. Blumberg]

Post by Roger E. Blumberg
to descend either of those progressions just omit the inserted leading
tri-tones -- so you'd be playing just the harmonized thirds of the
progression.

I got lazy earlier ;') , but I also wanted to make sure you played just the
harmonized 3rds of the scale by themselves for a while, ascending and
descending.
Here's a full ascending _and_ descending solution for the I-ii-iii-IV
progression :

so it's . . I-ii-iii-IV progression in similar fashion, harmonized
thirds of the scale but inserting tri-tone intervals as before -- this one
is moving up and then back down on the same two strings:

x23xxx = BF (V7's tri-tone)
x32xxx = CE (I)

x45xxx =
x53xxx = DF (ii)

x67xxx =
x75xxx = EG (iii)

x78xxx =
x87xxx = FA (IV)

x56xxx ----turn---- different tri-tone than when we ascended
x75xxx = EG (iii)

x34xxx ------------ different tri-tone than when we ascended*
x53xxx = DF (ii)

x23xxx = BF (tri-tone)
x32xxx = CE (I)


[* but the earier one we used before ii (when we ascended) works too, i.e.
x45xxx rather than x34xxx, try it both ways]


at any rate, you should hear many Jazz standards, or parts there-of, in that
sequence, particularly when you hit that turn-around and start to descend,
yes? "Makin Woopie" anyone ;')

so if you wanted to, you could build larger voicings, mostly seventh chords,
to fill that skeleton framework out.

Transfering the idea to other string sets, and in general seeing how to work
this in to your lead/fill accompaniment -- those of you who already
regularly use rich double-stops and diads (two note chords, harmonic
intervals) -- while you play, should be rewarding. It's musically rich,
fertile, lots of things get suggested. It's also a way to break out of the
"parallel motion" of voices, all notes either ascending or descending in the
same direction, that many of us commonly play. It's "natural" on guitar to
just slide a fingering up or down the neck (is parallel motion). These
choice bits of "contrary motion" can get the juices flowing. If you get a
chance, while you play the above, focus on hearing the melody line of just
_one_ voice ("one string" in this instance) as it moves through the
progression. Then listen to the other.


On the off chance that anyone's following along ;') Here's another contrary
motion resolution of a tri-tone interval, This one resolves to a "minor 6th"
interval (is 8 semitones wide). Note that minor 6th is the _inversion_ of
Major 3rd. [M3 = 4 semitones + m6 = 8 semitones = 12, inversions add up to
one octave, 12 semitones].

You'll hear how this can "sound" Major though (in the right context), and
thus can be used in Major as a Major sounding conclusion.

First, here's the tri-tone to minor 6th resolution, note the contrary motion
of voices (and how pretty it is ;')

xx34xx tri-tone
xx25xx m6

now a context, V-I progression in C, using harmized 3rds of the scale.
First, here's the skeleton V-I, G down to C

xx54xx GB
x32xxx CE

now combine the two bits. This will be like doing V-V7-I

xx54xx GB = V
xx34xx FB tri-tone = V7
xx25xx EC m6 = I

again, the reason that the last chord/interval works, and sounds like a
_Major_ final, is because it's the _inversion_ of the normal Major
resolution, CE.

play this voicing:

x325xx CEC

that's what's "implied" when we hear just it's upper interval EC, i.e. when
we concluded on this . .
xx25xx EC m6

And we don't even need the 5th at all in that sonority (fancy word for
chord) to have it sound Major.

you could fill this out more by doing something like this:

x554xx DGB = V (5th low, is second inversion, 5, R,3
x534xx DFB = V7 (5th low, is second inversion) 5,b7,3
x325xx CEC = I (no 5th) R,3,R root position


so, amoung other things, we've accumulated another very compact and reduced
way to exicute a nice V-I sequence (or V7-I). Also note what we're doing
here is like breaking triads down into their individual 3rds, upper and
lower 3rds of triads (like upper and lower triads of seventh chords -- as we
did earlier).

as usual, if you systematically transfer given patterns to other string
sets, figure it out and get it burned in by repitition, you can cover a lot
of ground quick.

I hope I've made this simple and understandable to most anyone. Weaving
voices, melody lines, alternating and controling consonance and dissonance,
counterpoint, partwriting, cadences, resolutions, all that music-speak, can
be approachable and useful, and it _can_ be done and illustrated on guitar.
That's were a lot of it got worked out and excersized in the first place --
on lutes, vihuela/guitars, and viols (chromatic polyphonic chording boards).
You can even explore earlier music thoery, medieval part writing, on guitar,
which often used _Unison_ tones as an ideal consonant resolution or ending
of voices. You can't do unisons on a piano ;') Not long ago I went to school
a little at rec.music.early and took some lessons from Margo Schulter on
some basics of Medieval theory, polyphonic patterns, chords. I used my
guitar as we went along and drew up charts of the chords, progression, etc
and posted them online. If you're interested you can root around the
directory of those illutrations here
http://www.thecipher.com/mschulter_figs/

there are some real jewels in there.
all of the text is Margo, I just translated it to fretboard and did the
drawings

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note: "power chords" were called "trines" in those days, they were
concidered an ideal "consonance". There were two species R5R and R4R. This
is an example of "split intervals", splitting and octave into either 5th/4th
or 4th/5th. Split intervals is of the "older theory" but it still makes a
lot of sence. What we know as "triads" they would call "split fifths". Form
a 5th interval and then insert a tone somewhere in the middle. How many ways
can you cut a 5th?

When you play that stuff notice how "at home" you feel, how familar it is.
Lutes tuned in 4ths could (and probably did) do stuff like this. This is
music, patterns, progressions, from 1250-1350 (700 years ago)! It's a
common misconception that there was no polyphony in medieval music, as if
they weren't sophisticated enough to do it. But their other arts and
architecture, and these musical examples, say otherwise.
Pictured in the classic one of a kind surviving Medieval song book, 1260
Spain, "The Cantigas de Santa Maria" are many lute and guitarra players.
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They could very well have been playing stuff like this. The guitar family
has been around, making music and training musicians, for quite a while,
there is continuity.

Again, I get carried away, but dats how it goes.

have fun
Roger

[Roger E. Blumberg]

so let me push my luck, and hopefully wrap it up in a nice package.

let's fill that out a little, and then use part of it in a real song,
"Georgia", a salute to Ray Charles, RIP.

we'll just fill in notes on the low E string to see how nice it sounds. All
of the triads throughout the whole progression, the chords marked with Roman
numerals I-ii-iii-IV, are in "second inversion", 5th is low, 5R3 for Major
triads, and 5Rb3 for minor triads.

use a Jazz-like fingerstyle when you play this, thumb and two finger pluck
of each chord, or you can just use your thumb in a downstroke, don't play
the 3 high strings.

332xxx = GCE (I)

545xxx
553xxx = ADF (ii)

767xxx
775xxx = BEG (iii)

878xxx
887xxx = CFA (IV)

656xxx
875xxx = CEG (I) sneeky, would have been iii, shares upper 3rd EG

545xxx
553xxx = ADF (ii)

323xxx
775xxx = BEG (iii) true turn-around stall (rather than going to I)

545xxx
553xxx = ADF (ii)

323xxx
332xxx = GCE (I) C Major


now we can use part of that as an intro to the song "Georgia" -- chances are
you can already hear it, start singing the lyric to Georgia when you hit
that final C chord in the above progression.

["Georgia On My Mind" by Hoagy Carmichael 1930, but a lot of us think of Ray
when we hear it.]

In the key of C the first couple of chords would be something like this:
you could just use the above turn-around as an intro, or even that whole
thing, or the whole thing and right after the last G7 (323xxx) tack on an
E7 - Amin - F7 - G7b13 - C. There's tons of ways [fingering for G7b13 is
below].

775xxx = BEG (iii) or use 875xxx C Maj again (common tones EG)

545xxx
553xxx = ADF (ii)

323xxx
332xxx = GCE (I) C Major


then start singing . . . (most are open position chords)

CMaj - E7 - Amin - Amin7/G - FMaj - F#half-dim7- CMaj - Amin7 - Dmin7 -
GMaj - E7 - Amin7 - Dmin7 - G7b13 ----- CMaj

- for Amin7/G you're just adding a bass note with little finger 302210
- for F#half-dim7 use 2x2210 or even x04210 will do
- for G7,b13 use 3x344x. b13 is octave of b6, this voicing is R,b7,3,b13,
no 5th

the "other eyes reach out to me" part, starts . . .

Amin - F7 -Amin - F7 - Amin - F7 - CMaj - D7
Amin - F7 - CMaj - ADom9 - Dmin7 - G7 - E7 - Amin - Dmin7 - G7 - C - F- C -
G7b13 . . . .

something like that, anyone? on those last bits?, I know it's not quite
right)

- for ADom9 use x4545x , has no root, 3,b7,9,5 (this looks like a half-dim7,
the upper seventh chord of a Dom9 -- remember I mentioned that earlier?) You
could also try 542000, sounds nice.

that arangement will do in any event, there are many possible. I'm not
looking for any medals for that arrangment ;'), it's a quicky, but it's
simple enough to play and sneeks in an application for the stuff I've been
writing about the last couple of days. See Google for Lyrics and other
arangements, other keys too, or/and anyone here who already has a nice
arrangement can post it. I learned it in D originally, from Willy Nelson's
"Star Dust" album, circa 1977.

Here's some Lyrics:

Georgia, Georgia, the whole day through
Just an old sweet song keeps Georgia on my mind

Georgia, Georgia, a song of you
Comes as sweet and clear as moonlight through the pines

Other arms reach out to me
Other eyes smile tenderly
Still in peaceful dreams I see
The road leads back to you

Georgia, Georgia, no peace I find
Just an old sweet song keeps Georgia on my mind


kisses Ray
Roger

[Perry Domzella]

Roger E. Blumberg wrote:

[lots]

and it was beautiful.

Thank you, Roger.
Thank you very much indeed

[Roger E. Blumberg]

Post by Perry Domzella
[lots]
and it was beautiful.
Thank you, Roger.
Thank you very much indeed

Danka

Roger

[Chess Player]

<snip>

Post by Roger E. Blumberg
You can also think of seventh chords as upper and lower triads and play the
upper triad only (let's say). This is how the Dom7 chord (true V7 of the
key, like G7 of key C Major) actually works. It's actually incorporating the
diminished triad built on the 7th degree (leading tone) of Major as it's
"upper triad" or highest 3 tones. Much of the "tension", desire to resolve,
resides there, that "leading tone" root movement of the chords B-C, vii°-I
is (part of) the essence of V7-I, that's the secret (or one of them). So
instead of GBDF use only BDF (the upper dim triad).

I believe someone posted recently on this ng about an Em/C chord. This is a
perfect example of what Roger is talking about. The Em is the upper triad
of a Cmaj7 chord.
Cmaj7 = C E G B
Em = E G B
Em/C = EGB with C bass (lowest note)

In practicality, this might be written as Em/C with the intent of the bass
player playing a C note while the guitarist plays an Em chord.

[Pt]

Another note...

Keep in mind that this is a beginners group.
Not a group to try to prove that one person can get more technical
than the other.

I feel that the subject matter is important for beginners who want to
learn more about music theory and how it works.
So please try to keep your messages to where a brginner will be able
to understand them.

Pt

[Roger E. Blumberg]

Post by Pt
Another note...
Keep in mind that this is a beginners group.
Not a group to try to prove that one person can get more technical
than the other.
I feel that the subject matter is important for beginners who want to
learn more about music theory and how it works.
So please try to keep your messages to where a brginner will be able
to understand them.
Pt

???. Sorry Pt. That is basic stuff. I wasn't trying to impress anyone (if
you're meaning me). One thing led to another so I went with it. If anyone
needs clearification of any vocabulary or concepts I'll elaborate. You did
ask for (or initiate a discussion of) some basic theory, yes? And you
further said, this may be interesting, what replies come in -- all of which
is opening the door pretty wide.

Anywho, maybe you weren't directing that at me, in which case no prob. And
if you were, [lease suggest what needs elaboration. "Leading tone" triad may
have been a new term to some, but it's basic and I did elabotate at least
some.

Roger

[Pt]

On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 13:47:22 GMT, "Roger E. Blumberg"

Post by Roger E. Blumberg
???. Sorry Pt. That is basic stuff.

It is basic to you, me an some others who have been playing and
studying for many years.
But I'm sure that the majority of beginners don't know what we are
talking about.
Almost every musical term should be explained such as tonic, diatonic,
dominant etc.

I would like to know if any beginners are getting anything out of this
thread?

If not, what can we do to make it easier to understand?

And always ask questions?

Pt

[Roger E. Blumberg]

Post by Pt
On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 13:47:22 GMT, "Roger E. Blumberg"

Post by Roger E. Blumberg
???. Sorry Pt. That is basic stuff.

It is basic to you, me an some others who have been playing and
studying for many years.
But I'm sure that the majority of beginners don't know what we are
talking about.
Almost every musical term should be explained such as tonic, diatonic,
dominant etc.

Tonic = first tone of the scale or key, C is the tonic of any C scale,
Major, minor, chromatic, any mode

Dominant = function of the 5th degree (V) of the Major scale or/and any
natural chord of that scale degree.


now do you want me to define mode? Sorry Pt, this will never end that way.
I believe I've made no infraction. I respect the intelligence of beginners
and expect they'll ask for more if and when they need more. Coming to
understand what it is about the V7 chord that makes it work is a big part of
the enchilada in Western music theory and much music from classical to rock
to Blues/Jazz. As they say, if you can do it better, simpler, more economy,
have at it.

Peace
Roger

Post by Pt
I would like to know if any beginners are getting anything out of this
thread?
If not, what can we do to make it easier to understand?
And always ask questions?
Pt

[Eric R]

Post by Pt
It is basic to you, me an some others who have been playing and
studying for many years.
But I'm sure that the majority of beginners don't know what we are
talking about.
Almost every musical term should be explained such as tonic, diatonic,
dominant etc.
I would like to know if any beginners are getting anything out of this
thread?
If not, what can we do to make it easier to understand?
And always ask questions?
Pt

I'm beyond the total beginner phase, and do sometimes experience a bit
of difficulty following some threads. As long as they're not TOOOOO LONG
(as in several pages worth), I try to read them and hopefully they'll stay
somewhere in my head for future reference. I'd rather pass over a post that is
to complicated, than have it not posted, it is probably useful to somebody.
Remember there are several levels of beginners here and learning is a lifetime
project.
Eric

[Chess Player]

Post by Roger E. Blumberg
???. Sorry Pt. That is basic stuff. I wasn't trying to impress anyone (if
you're meaning me).

Roger, you don't owe Pat or anyone else an apology for posting informative
on topic information as you did. Just because he doesn't understand it
doesn't mean nobody else will. If even 1 person picks up 1 new idea from 1
of your posts, that should be enough to make it all worth while. After all,
that's why you posted it - to help people!

Brian

[Roger E. Blumberg]

Post by Chess Player

Post by Roger E. Blumberg
???. Sorry Pt. That is basic stuff. I wasn't trying to impress anyone (if
you're meaning me).

Roger, you don't owe Pat or anyone else an apology for posting informative
on topic information as you did. Just because he doesn't understand it
doesn't mean nobody else will. If even 1 person picks up 1 new idea from 1
of your posts, that should be enough to make it all worth while. After all,
that's why you posted it - to help people!
Brian

thanks. Appreciated.

Roger

[Pt]

Post by Chess Player

Post by Roger E. Blumberg
???. Sorry Pt. That is basic stuff. I wasn't trying to impress anyone (if
you're meaning me).

Roger, you don't owe Pat or anyone else an apology for posting informative
on topic information as you did. Just because he doesn't understand it
doesn't mean nobody else will. If even 1 person picks up 1 new idea from 1
of your posts, that should be enough to make it all worth while. After all,
that's why you posted it - to help people!
Brian

I never said that I don't understand it.
I have no problems with it as you should know.
But do the newer players in this group understand it?
That's who we are here for.
I appreciate all the interesting messages in this thread.
Are we moving towards tri-tone subs?

Pt

[Chess Player]

<snip>

Post by Pt
I never said that I don't understand it.
I have no problems with it as you should know.

I once assumed this to be true simply out of respect for you, but you've
said things in the past that seriously make me wonder whether you truly
comprehend theory, or just have it memorized.

Post by Pt
But do the newer players in this group understand it?
That's who we are here for.

I guess it's who YOU are here for. As for me, I'm here because I consider
myself a beginner and I want to learn more. And yes, I do understand the
things Roger wrote about and I found his post extremely informative. When I
started reading this ng I did not understand these things but thanks to
informative posts I now do.
Pat, I think you are blurring the line between beginner on the guitar and
born yesterday. It is acceptable to assume that many readers of this ng are
relatively new to the guitar. It is not however acceptable to assume they
were born yesterday! To treat them (us) as such is IMHO an insult to their
(our) intelligence.

Post by Pt
I appreciate all the interesting messages in this thread.
Are we moving towards tri-tone subs?
Pt

[Pt]

Post by Chess Player
I once assumed this to be true simply out of respect for you, but you've
said things in the past that seriously make me wonder whether you truly
comprehend theory, or just have it memorized.

You don't have respect for me or anyone else here.
You have a lot to learn.

Pt

[Chess Player]

<snip>

Post by Pt
You don't have respect for me or anyone else here.

This is where you are wrong. I wouldn't hang out here if I didn't have
repect for anyone. I came here originally to learn. I have learned more
than I ever imagined possible thanks in large part to the wonderful members
of this group. I also try to give back whenever I can, but at the same
time, I continue to learn.
And yes, I do still have respect for you too, Pat. However, it hurts me to
see you attack people like Roger (arguably the smartest guy on the planet!)
when he's only trying to help people. And, contrary to what you may think,
there are many bright individuals reading this group that are able to follow
his posts. I realize there are some reading that don't understand all the
posts, but there's no rule saying everyone reading MUST understand all
posts. It is beyond me why you start these threads and then tear people
down for answering your requests for more information.
The question you posed; "How do you know what and how many notes to play for
a chord?" is not a simple one, and it does not warrant a simple answer.

Post by Pt
You have a lot to learn.

We can certainly agree on that. That's why I'm here, to learn.
Brian

[Roger E. Blumberg]

Hey Brian, let me be the first to argue about the "arguably" ;')
I appreciate the complement, but I'm really just a shmoe. I have my moments,
like everyone else. I've got some native intellegence that I try to squeeze
every last drop out of, but there are so many people in the world who are so
much smarter and better educated than I am. I do _care_ a lot though, and I
mix my passions (of which learning is one) and a good dose of common sense
into my native smarts cocktail, and it goes pretty far sometimes, I guess.

I value common sense the same way I value having good ears. Good ears always
has been the real key to being a musician. I don't like music theory all
that much to tell you the truth. There are some cool tricks, it's a nice
tool to have, providing your teacher doesn't use the baseball bat approach,
but both music theory instruction and even reading music are fairly recent
developements. Just one hundred years ago illiteracy was the rule, I mean
reading and writing your native tounge, let alone reading music or studying
music theory. Music and musicans, music makers, historically, were never
been dependant upon anything more than their ears and their hearts. Hand to
hand, father to son, mother to daughter, singing in church, singing harmony,
getting melody in your blood, steeped in it since childhood, osmossis,
actually making music regularly, that's how it's always been, that's the
rule not the exception. Just comon folk being human. The things that I do
like about theory though, the potential tool of it, I'd like to see made
more _accessable_ to more people, make it as easy as possible, as painless
as possible, less gobbledy-gook, and without qualitications and conditions,
like you _must_ do xyz and in this order or we'll refuse you access. Music
is our birthright, everyone on the planet. Helping people get their foot in
the door, whichever door they want, is the most important part, the biggest
and hardest step. It's the only thing that matters as far as I'm concerned.

Anyway, I'll be putting my foot in my mouth enough times in future (no
doubt) that you might not want to judge so quickly just yet ;') I don't want
to embarass you later. I often speak emphatically, but that doesn't make me
an expert necessarily.

thanks though. It does make me feel good, that was a very high complement,
to say the least.

Roger

Post by Chess Player
<snip>

Post by Pt
You don't have respect for me or anyone else here.

This is where you are wrong. I wouldn't hang out here if I didn't have
repect for anyone. I came here originally to learn. I have learned more
than I ever imagined possible thanks in large part to the wonderful members
of this group. I also try to give back whenever I can, but at the same
time, I continue to learn.
And yes, I do still have respect for you too, Pat. However, it hurts me to
see you attack people like Roger (arguably the smartest guy on the planet!)
when he's only trying to help people. And, contrary to what you may think,
there are many bright individuals reading this group that are able to follow
his posts. I realize there are some reading that don't understand all the
posts, but there's no rule saying everyone reading MUST understand all
posts. It is beyond me why you start these threads and then tear people
down for answering your requests for more information.
The question you posed; "How do you know what and how many notes to play for
a chord?" is not a simple one, and it does not warrant a simple answer.

Post by Pt
You have a lot to learn.

We can certainly agree on that. That's why I'm here, to learn.
Brian

[thomas schönsgibl]

hi,

Post by Pt
The simple form of a chord is a triad or 3 notes consisting of the
1st, 3rd and 5th notes of the scale.

if you define a chord this way you have to name the scale. otherwise you
create a lot of confusion. which scale? there are 1000 of scales?

Post by Pt
A triad is 1, 3, 5 notes of the scale.
A 7th chord is 1, 3, 5, 7 notes of the scale.

which 7th? the major7 ( chordname X maj7 ) or the minor7 ( b7 ) (
chordname X 7 )
which scale? the major scale with the major7th or the mixolydian scale
with the minor 7th (b7)?
if someone here is thinking: " ah, i have a G7 chord so i can use
the G major scale" then it is not right.
tschüß nice day
thomas

[Chess Player]

Post by thomas schönsgibl
hi,

Post by Pt
The simple form of a chord is a triad or 3 notes consisting of the
1st, 3rd and 5th notes of the scale.

if you define a chord this way you have to name the scale. otherwise you
create a lot of confusion. which scale? there are 1000 of scales?

Post by Pt
A triad is 1, 3, 5 notes of the scale.
A 7th chord is 1, 3, 5, 7 notes of the scale.

which 7th? the major7 ( chordname X maj7 ) or the minor7 ( b7 ) (
chordname X 7 )
which scale? the major scale with the major7th or the mixolydian scale
with the minor 7th (b7)?
if someone here is thinking: " ah, i have a G7 chord so i can use
the G major scale" then it is not right.
tschüß nice day
thomas

ROTFLMAO!
Thanks for a great post Thomas!