Discussion:
Play 3-5 chords and you can play 90% of the songs?
(too old to reply)
crw59@earthlink.net
2009-09-10 02:59:25 UTC
Permalink
I've heard mentioned that if you can get a few chords under your belt
you
can strum along to a whole mess of songs.


So, what are the chords that fit this statement? I've seen books with
1000's of chords, but seriously, I bet with 5-10 chords you can do a
lot.


thx - Craig
RichL
2009-09-10 04:38:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@earthlink.net
I've heard mentioned that if you can get a few chords under your belt
you
can strum along to a whole mess of songs.
So, what are the chords that fit this statement? I've seen books with
1000's of chords, but seriously, I bet with 5-10 chords you can do a
lot.
thx - Craig
Probably, if you're willing to transpose songs to one or two keys and
play simplified versions of some of the chords (i.e., eliminate maj7,
dom7, 6, dim, & aug chords, etc.). If you want to play along with them
in their original keys, then no.

In the key of C -

Required: C Dm Em F G Am
David Raleigh Arnold
2009-09-11 13:20:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by RichL
Post by ***@earthlink.net
I've heard mentioned that if you can get a few chords under your belt
you
can strum along to a whole mess of songs.
So, what are the chords that fit this statement? I've seen books with
1000's of chords, but seriously, I bet with 5-10 chords you can do a
lot.
thx - Craig
Probably, if you're willing to transpose songs to one or two keys and
play simplified versions of some of the chords (i.e., eliminate maj7,
dom7, 6, dim, & aug chords, etc.). If you want to play along with them
in their original keys, then no.
In the key of C -
Required: C Dm Em F G Am
add Bm7(b5) and Bdim7, which are, or can be, quite easy chords.
daveA
--
For beginners: very easy guitar music, solos, duets, exercises. Early
intermediate guitar solos. One best scale set for all guitarists.
http://www.openguitar.com/scalescomparison.html ::: plus new and
better chord and arpeggio exercises. http://www.openguitar.com
Lumpy
2009-09-11 13:40:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
add Bm7(b5) and Bdim7, which are,
or can be, quite easy chords.
Em11 is a vital chord.
But most casual players aren't ready
to master the fingering.


Lumpy

You played on "The Love Boat"?
Yes. White tux, huge sideburns.

www.LumpyMusic.com
David Raleigh Arnold
2009-09-12 00:56:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lumpy
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
add Bm7(b5) and Bdim7, which are,
or can be, quite easy chords.
Em11 is a vital chord.
But most casual players aren't ready
to master the fingering.
Like Em11 000000?
Post by Lumpy
Lumpy
You played on "The Love Boat"?
Yes. White tux, huge sideburns.
www.LumpyMusic.com
I proposed a couple of chords on VII which are both very
common and very useful. daveA
--
For beginners: very easy guitar music, solos, duets, exercises. Early
intermediate guitar solos. One best scale set for all guitarists.
http://www.openguitar.com/scalescomparison.html ::: plus new and
better chord and arpeggio exercises. http://www.openguitar.com
Lumpy
2009-09-12 01:41:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Lumpy
Em11 is a vital chord.
But most casual players aren't ready
to master the fingering.
Like Em11 000000?
Yes. That's also known as the satire chord.


Lumpy

You played on "The Love Boat"?
Yes. White tux, huge sideburns.

www.LumpyMusic.com
David Raleigh Arnold
2009-09-13 14:45:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lumpy
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Lumpy
Em11 is a vital chord.
But most casual players aren't ready
to master the fingering.
Like Em11 000000?
Yes. That's also known as the satire chord.
Not necessarily:

http://www.openguitar.com/pdf/bitonale.pdf

daveA
--
For beginners: very easy guitar music, solos, duets, exercises. Early
intermediate guitar solos. One best scale set for all guitarists.
http://www.openguitar.com/scalescomparison.html ::: plus new and
better chord and arpeggio exercises. http://www.openguitar.com
Lumpy
2009-09-13 15:33:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Lumpy
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Lumpy
Em11 is a vital chord.
But most casual players aren't ready
to master the fingering.
Like Em11 000000?
Yes. That's also known as the satire chord.
http://www.openguitar.com/pdf/bitonale.pdf
Do my tech -
Loading Image...


Lumpy

You played on "The Love Boat"?
Yes. White tux, huge sideburns.

www.LumpyMusic.com
David Raleigh Arnold
2009-09-14 22:07:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lumpy
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Lumpy
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Lumpy
Em11 is a vital chord.
But most casual players aren't ready
to master the fingering.
Like Em11 000000?
Yes. That's also known as the satire chord.
http://www.openguitar.com/pdf/bitonale.pdf
Do my tech -
http://www.digitalcartography.com/camp/MyTech.jpg
Lumpy
You played on "The Love Boat"?
Yes. White tux, huge sideburns.
www.LumpyMusic.com
What did Fibich ever do to you? daveA
--
For beginners: very easy guitar music, solos, duets, exercises. Early
intermediate guitar solos. One best scale set for all guitarists.
http://www.openguitar.com/scalescomparison.html ::: plus new and
better chord and arpeggio exercises. http://www.openguitar.com
Lumpy
2009-09-14 22:13:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
What did Fibich ever do to you?
Beat me at nude bowling.


Lumpy

You played on "The Love Boat"?
Yes. White tux, huge sideburns.

www.LumpyMusic.com
Rufus
2009-09-15 00:37:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lumpy
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
What did Fibich ever do to you?
Beat me at nude bowling.
Lumpy
You played on "The Love Boat"?
Yes. White tux, huge sideburns.
www.LumpyMusic.com
...so to speak.
--
- Rufus
Lumpy
2009-09-10 04:58:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@earthlink.net
So, what are the chords that fit
this statement? I've seen books with
1000's of chords...
Have you seen books of songs that use 1000's
of chords?


Lumpy

Can you do that FM disc jockey voice?
Yes, but it doesn't translate well in ascii.
www.LumpyMusic.com
Squier
2009-09-10 05:59:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@earthlink.net
I've heard mentioned that if you can get a few chords under your belt
you
can strum along to a whole mess of songs.
So, what are the chords that fit this statement? I've seen books with
1000's of chords, but seriously, I bet with 5-10 chords you can do a
lot.
thx - Craig
Not sure about "90%" but you can certainly play a lot of songs
only knowing a few chords. The thing is that even simple 3 chord
music sounds best when the chords are played well. Good timing
and technique are essential. You can also arpeggiate chords or
pick a bass note and strum the rest of the chord. Lots of different
ways to play a chord. Anyways -- basically know all the 'open chords'
start with the major chords such as
E maj, G maj, A maj, D maj, F maj.. (I'll also include B one fret up there).
The work on minors E min, A min, etc...

then work on some "maj 7th's" 7ths are easy to transition to
after you know your major chords and they provide
you with a chord that wants to go somewhere (to the next chord).

Basically - start out by knowing all your open chords and chords
such as B/B min are just one position up. Later on you can work
on barre chords up the neck. Once you know all your open chords then
there are a gazillion (not a mathematically correct term.. not yet anyways)
or a bazillion songs in there. You could probably make a career from
playing songs in open chords.

Don't be satisfied simply strumming the chords. Get to play them
all sorts of ways, using different techniques from light touch to
heavy overdriven palm muting. get to arpegiate, set to pick out some
and strum others.. etc...
and play it all fluidly. not as if you are struggling to do it.
good open chord technique is a must (imho).
dawg
2009-09-10 12:05:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Squier
Post by ***@earthlink.net
I've heard mentioned that if you can get a few chords under your belt
you
can strum along to a whole mess of songs.
So, what are the chords that fit this statement?  I've seen books with
1000's of chords, but seriously,  I bet with 5-10 chords you can do a
lot.
thx - Craig
Not sure about "90%" but you can certainly play a lot of songs
only knowing a few chords.  The thing is that even simple 3 chord
music sounds best when the chords are played well.  Good timing
and technique are essential.  You can also arpeggiate chords or
pick a bass note and strum the rest of the chord.  Lots of different
ways to play a chord.   Anyways --  basically know all the 'open chords'
start with the major chords such as
E maj, G maj, A maj, D maj, F maj.. (I'll also include B one fret up there).
The work on minors E min, A min, etc...  
then work on some "maj 7th's"   7ths are easy to transition to
after you know your major chords and they provide
you with a chord that wants to go somewhere (to the next chord).
well, sort of...if you learn DOMINANT sevenths (BIG difference from
a major 7th) - [ maybe you don't know the difference - yet ]. THEN
you
have a chord that "wants to go somewhere"...

fact is, dominant seventh chords are MUCH more common than
major seventh chords.

major seventh chords contain the first,third,fifth and seventh steps
of a scale....dominant seventh chords, the same, HOWEVER, the
seventh is flatted: - want technical? the interval between the
major
third and the flatted seventh is called a tritone (3 whole steps), and
it is an "unstable" interval, and is the cause of the chord "wanting
to go somewhere" - and that SOMEWHERE is either UP a perfect
fourth, or DOWN a half step....

guys, listen to LUMPY! look up chord progressions to REAL songs
-a quick stop at the library will get you a song book )for FREE(!)
with a hundred songs in it. you'll find REAL songs with a FEW major
seventh chords, and LOTS of dominant seventh chords...and LOTS of
minor seventh chords.

for the tech geeks, there are MORE seventh chords - the minor major
seventh, the augmented seventh, the seven flat five, the diminished
seventh (which could be identified as a minor SIX flat five), and more
-
help yourself...want help? refer to Johnny Smith Approach to Guitar-
which organizes all that stuff for you, and has you learn the chords
with their appropriate resolutions (under 20 bucks).

DOMINANT SEVENTH chords are a lot of what make the blues sound like
the blues. major 7th chords makes the blues sound awful.
Tim C.
2009-09-10 12:17:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by dawg
DOMINANT SEVENTH chords are a lot of what make the blues sound like
the blues. major 7th chords makes the blues sound awful.
Which is ok if you want to play the blues I suppose.
--
Tim C.
Shy Picker
2009-09-10 14:16:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@earthlink.net
I've heard mentioned that if you can get a few chords under your belt
you
can strum along to a whole mess of songs.
So, what are the chords that fit this statement?  I've seen books with
1000's of chords, but seriously,  I bet with 5-10 chords you can do a
lot.
thx - Craig
They may not be your favorite songs but they use a lot of the same
notes.
Derek
2009-09-10 14:55:57 UTC
Permalink
Heck, you can play HUNDREDS of songs just using I IV V.

Add the VI and III, and now we are talking thousands for sure.

As far as RichL mentioning transposing, many guys make up for this by
using a capo. You can keep playing the same chords, just slide the
capo around to match the key.
Charmed Snark
2009-09-10 20:15:31 UTC
Permalink
Derek expounded in news:d2e9f229-d1d4-4dd9-a71e-a0c747e2b5b5
Post by Derek
Heck, you can play HUNDREDS of songs just using I IV V.
Add the VI and III, and now we are talking thousands for sure.
As far as RichL mentioning transposing, many guys make up for this by
using a capo. You can keep playing the same chords, just slide the
capo around to match the key.
There must be tons of blues mileage with just E (Maj),
E7, A7 and B7. I can spend all night just
foolin with those.

So if you were starting out, those might be 3-4 good
ones to start with. Then noodle around with the
different turn-arounds that go with them.

Snark.
Tony Done
2009-09-10 20:48:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@earthlink.net
I've heard mentioned that if you can get a few chords under your belt
you
can strum along to a whole mess of songs.
So, what are the chords that fit this statement? I've seen books with
1000's of chords, but seriously, I bet with 5-10 chords you can do a
lot.
thx - Craig
Here's may take on it. There are five common major keys E, A, D, G and C. To
play the three major and minor chords in each of these you need to know 7
major and 7 minor chords in total. Another increment is the five dom 7th
chords associated with these keys. These 19 chords will also cover the
common minor keys of Em, Am and Dm. (Er, I think, someone correct me if I am
wrong.) These will cover a lot of ground in pop, folk and blues.

Tony D
Lumpy
2009-09-10 21:07:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Done
Here's may take on it. There are five common major keys E, A, D, G
and C. To play the three major and minor chords in each of these you
need to know 7 major and 7 minor chords in total. Another increment
is the five dom 7th chords associated with these keys. These 19
chords will also cover the common minor keys of Em, Am and Dm. (Er, I
think, someone correct me if I am wrong.) These will cover a lot of
ground in pop, folk and blues.
I don't think you're "wrong", but I'd suggest looing
at those chords in terms of playing them in other
positions.

Play an F chord. Now move it up 2 frets, it's a G chord.
2 frets more, it's an A chord. 2 frets more it's a B chord etc.
ie, you've learned ONE "chord" (one shape) and moved it
to various places to form other named chords with exactly
the same shape. We are the only instrument that can do that.
Pianos have to change their fingering entirely to change
from a C to a D chord.

In my view, if you could play an E shape, A shape and
C shape chord, you'd have every possible Major chord
there is. Just move it to the appropriate spot.

That's not really learning new chords, in the sense
that you have to learn a new fingering. It's just
knowing "when I put it on the 6th fret it's a Bb".

I certainly think you could play 90% of all songs
with I IV V. If you could play those in various
keys, you'd still be playing I IV V. Add a vi chord
and you'd have another big chunk of all songs.

The idea of learning to play a thousand different chords
is pretty meaningless, IMO. Learn to play ONE. Learn how
to make it Maj, min, 7th, Maj7th, m7th. Now you've got
nearly every possibility that will ever come up. When
there is an oddball that comes up (diminished, aug etc)
Learn the oddball and plug it into the song. But it seems
silly to learn 25 variants on the m7b5 chord or the #9
chord, just to have them in your bag of rote knowledge tricks.


Lumpy

You were on CHiPs? Did you wear those sexy
tight pants and high boots like Erik Estrada?
No. Swimtrunks.
www.LumpyMusic.com
Sean
2009-09-10 23:00:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lumpy
I don't think you're "wrong", but I'd suggest looing
at those chords in terms of playing them in other
positions.
To this I would add another bit of "chunking." The first song I ever
learned, back around 1968, was Kansas City. E A B7.
When it came to E or E7, I never thought of those as different chords.
Just variants of one chord. So, when I was starting out, knowing E, E7,
A, A7, B, and B7 was knowing 3 chords.
Maybe that makes it less intimidating for the beginner.
Muso
2009-09-10 23:17:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@earthlink.net
I've heard mentioned that if you can get a few chords under your belt
you
can strum along to a whole mess of songs.
So, what are the chords that fit this statement?  I've seen books with
1000's of chords, but seriously,  I bet with 5-10 chords you can do a
lot.
thx - Craig
If you can play one chord, you can play much of the Bo Diddley
catalog. Bo Diddley was a remarkable character. Not only did he
build his own guitar, but he also did his own dental work.
Rufus
2009-09-11 00:41:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@earthlink.net
I've heard mentioned that if you can get a few chords under your belt
you
can strum along to a whole mess of songs.
So, what are the chords that fit this statement? I've seen books with
1000's of chords, but seriously, I bet with 5-10 chords you can do a
lot.
thx - Craig
THREE chords - E form barre (root 6), A form barre (root 5), D form
barre (root 4) - and a black guitar...

...learn those major and minor forms, and you can play just about
anything you'd be like to hear on rock/pop radio to some passable extent.
--
- Rufus
Lumpy
2009-09-11 01:06:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rufus
THREE chords - E form barre (root 6), A form barre (root 5), D form
barre (root 4) - and a black guitar...
Dat's what I'm talkin' a'boot.

I think those "1000 Guitar Chords" books
are pretty useless, not to mention intimidating
to someone who is just starting out.


Lumpy

You played on "The Love Boat"?
Yes. White tux, huge sideburns.

www.LumpyMusic.com
RichL
2009-09-11 03:03:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lumpy
Post by Rufus
THREE chords - E form barre (root 6), A form barre (root 5), D form
barre (root 4) - and a black guitar...
Dat's what I'm talkin' a'boot.
I think those "1000 Guitar Chords" books
are pretty useless, not to mention intimidating
to someone who is just starting out.
Lumpy
You played on "The Love Boat"?
Yes. White tux, huge sideburns.
www.LumpyMusic.com
But someone just starting out isn't going to be able to play barre
chords and move them up and down the neck.
Sean
2009-09-11 03:46:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by RichL
Post by Lumpy
Post by Rufus
THREE chords - E form barre (root 6), A form barre (root 5), D form
barre (root 4) - and a black guitar...
Dat's what I'm talkin' a'boot.
I think those "1000 Guitar Chords" books
are pretty useless, not to mention intimidating
to someone who is just starting out.
Lumpy
You played on "The Love Boat"?
Yes. White tux, huge sideburns.
www.LumpyMusic.com
But someone just starting out isn't going to be able to play barre
chords and move them up and down the neck.
As a fifteen year kid, as soon as I'd learned E, A, and B7 for playing
Kansas City, I experimented with just moving the E shape up and down the
neck. No barre at all. I found some spots that sounded cool and used
those chords for my first original song, "At the Mall." I.e., the second
song I learned to play was one I made up myself. It went something like
"At the mall, it's all there is. At the mall, all the stupid kids..."
Things haven't changed that much since 1968.
The third song was also an original. Play the E chord. Slide it up one
fret. Slide it back down. Sing "Aye yi yi." Hey, it's flamenco! I still
remember most of the lyrics of that one. "My naaaaame iiis Joseeee and I
leev in zee haaaaay and I sleep all daaaay. Coca cola all ze waaaay,
someday zee gringo weel go awaaaay" etc. It was 15 year old social
commentary or something. My buddies liked singing along with that one.

If the beginner can cross the difficult hurdle of learning the infamous
F chord, then he can slide that shape up and down the neck, avoiding the
E and A strings.
Learn to play a C7, then slide that up and down the neck. Yippee!
Lumpy
2009-09-11 06:11:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by RichL
But someone just starting out isn't going to be able to play barre
chords and move them up and down the neck.
A lot easier to learn that than to
try and memorize 100 chords.

Five days, maybe two weeks, and anybody can
play barre chords.


Lumpy

You played on "The Love Boat"?
Yes. White tux, huge sideburns.

www.LumpyMusic.com
RichL
2009-09-12 00:29:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lumpy
Post by RichL
But someone just starting out isn't going to be able to play barre
chords and move them up and down the neck.
A lot easier to learn that than to
try and memorize 100 chords.
Five days, maybe two weeks, and anybody can
play barre chords.
Hmmm, maybe I was the exception. I struggled with them for a while. In
the meantime, I had probably learned 50 chords. I can't really say I
memorized them, because once I understood how *intervals* translated
onto the guitar fretboard, most of them seemed pretty intuitive. I was
working on barre chords at the same time but the physical process of
getting all the strings to sound properly in a barre had me stumped for
a while.
Rufus
2009-09-12 01:29:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by RichL
Post by Lumpy
Post by RichL
But someone just starting out isn't going to be able to play barre
chords and move them up and down the neck.
A lot easier to learn that than to
try and memorize 100 chords.
Five days, maybe two weeks, and anybody can
play barre chords.
Hmmm, maybe I was the exception. I struggled with them for a while. In
the meantime, I had probably learned 50 chords. I can't really say I
memorized them, because once I understood how *intervals* translated
onto the guitar fretboard, most of them seemed pretty intuitive. I was
working on barre chords at the same time but the physical process of
getting all the strings to sound properly in a barre had me stumped for
a while.
I was just the opposite - played barre chords form the git (which is
likely why I get puzzled over people having difficulty with an F...),
and only knew and/or used three cowboy/open chords - that was the first
thing my roommate showed me in handing me some basics. And that was
about all I needed to be able to passably play just about anything I
could hear on the radio in the 70s/80s. Or improve a bit of blues.

Went on like that for years...only started fooling around with theory
and intervals about 10 years or so ago - to fill in the gaps (I tend to
try and teach friends that stuff now, and nobody gets it). And I really
would like to get back to some chordal study, but even the stuff I'm
doing with others people right now doesn't really require it.
--
- Rufus
Lumpy
2009-09-12 01:40:34 UTC
Permalink
RichL wrote:
[barre chords]
Post by RichL
Hmmm, maybe I was the exception. I struggled with them for a while.
In the meantime, I had probably learned 50 chords...
What 50 chords did you learn to play without
playing any barre forms?


Lumpy

Can you do that FM disc jockey voice?
Yes, but it doesn't translate well in ascii.
www.LumpyMusic.com
RichL
2009-09-12 03:36:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lumpy
[barre chords]
Post by RichL
Hmmm, maybe I was the exception. I struggled with them for a while.
In the meantime, I had probably learned 50 chords...
What 50 chords did you learn to play without
playing any barre forms?
You're asking a 60-year-old details of things that he learned 46 years
ago? Hmmm....let's give it a shot.
C, C7, Cmaj7
D, D7, Dmaj7, D6
E, E7, Em, Em7, Em6
F chord form (both 133211 and xx3211, all the way up and down the neck,
but not barred (wrapped my thumb around the neck to get the low root).
I'll count that as 11. (I won't count using it at the 12th fret since I
could get the same thing an octave lower using open E.)
Same with Bbm chord form (both 113321 and xx3321, again used my thumb).
That's another 11.
G, G7
Am, Am7, Am6.
Eaug (xx2110) and Faug form (xx3221) up and down the neck (12)
Fdim7 (xx0101) and F#dim7 form (xx1212) up and down the neck (12).

So let's see, I'm up to 63 chords. I underestimated.
The point is, I could do these things but initially could not master
physically laying my index finger across six strings for an F or Fm
barre and have all the barred strings sound properly, nor could I get
the third, fourth, and fifth strings to sound properly when attempting
to play a barred Bbm on the first fret (or moving that form up the
neck).

However, I had those other movable (but strictly speaking, not barred)
chords in my back of tricks as work-arounds.

I still have a tendency to play those F and Bm chords on the first fret
the way I indicated above, even though I *can* barre them.
RichL
2009-09-12 03:37:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by RichL
I still have a tendency to play those F and Bm chords on the first
fret the way I indicated above, even though I *can* barre them.
Bbm, not Bm.
Lumpy
2009-09-12 04:37:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by RichL
F chord form (both 133211 and xx3211, all the way up and down the
neck, but not barred (wrapped my thumb around the neck to get the low
root). I'll count that as 11.
I'd certainly count that as a barre chord.
At the very least you're playing a partial
barre in the xx3211 form. You're playing
a full barre in the six string version.
You're just using your thumb to achieve
the root. I'd count it as one chord.

Same with your aug and diminished shapes.
Those are all individually the same shape chord.
You're simply moving them from G to G# to A etc.

If you did the same with C CM7 C7 shape chords
you could add another 11+11+11 chords. But to
me those too are partial barre moveable chords.

Do the same with however you play a Bb chord.
Move it up to B C C# D etc.

And I'm simply not convinced that poor setup
or lack of hand strength doesn't allow people
to learn barre chords, partial or otherwise.
Barre chords simply require technique, not
vice grip like strength. If somebody didn't
show you that as a kid, perhaps that's why
it seemed rough to you. But I see plenty
of kids with cheap guitars playing full
barre chords. I did it on a cheap Japanese
drednaught with Black Diamond strings when
I was 5 years old. I certainly didn't have
Arnold-like strength. But I had teachers
that taught me how to use leverage.

I tend to not separate E Em Em7 E7 etc
as "different chords". There's typically
one note difference but the shape is exactly
the same. My practical reason for considering
those chords the same works like this -

Say Joe Newbee learned three chords D C G.
We all know that's SHA in the key of G.
So now say he learned the variants of those
chords Dm D7 Dm7 DM7 etc. That doesn't really
give him any "new chords" to work with. He's
still got D C and G, he's just got some minors
and 7ths. I suppose in the most strict sense
he would have TWO chords, D and Dm. The natural extentions
to those chords (7ths etc) don't change the basic function
of the chord. That kid might have learned 15 different
"chords" but actually what he has is D C and G with
5 variants each. He still can't play an F or a Bb or
an E.

So big picture, "I've memorized 1000 different chords".
Ok, great. Can you play Bbm7?
"No, that's not one of the chords I've memorized".
That doesn't seem very practical.

Compare that to -

"Yeah, that's like an Am7 on the 5th fret but
moved up one fret. I'm a little weak on that full
barre version but I can play the partial version
on the first 4 strings".

Or look at it like this -

Even IF it did take significant strength to play
barre chords, it's not like becoming an olympic
weight lifter. You can train your hand to have
more strength ('specially when you're a youngin')
in a few days. And again, I'm not convinced that
it's unusual strength that's needed.

Learn a Barre E shape on about the 7th fret.
If it's fuzzy today, work it for 60 seconds at
a time, three times a day. In a week you'll wonder
what the problem was last week.


Lumpy

You played on "The Love Boat"?
Yes. White tux, huge sideburns.

www.LumpyMusic.com
RichL
2009-09-12 05:07:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lumpy
Post by RichL
F chord form (both 133211 and xx3211, all the way up and down the
neck, but not barred (wrapped my thumb around the neck to get the low
root). I'll count that as 11.
I'd certainly count that as a barre chord.
At the very least you're playing a partial
barre in the xx3211 form. You're playing
a full barre in the six string version.
You're just using your thumb to achieve
the root. I'd count it as one chord.
Same with your aug and diminished shapes.
Those are all individually the same shape chord.
You're simply moving them from G to G# to A etc.
If you did the same with C CM7 C7 shape chords
you could add another 11+11+11 chords. But to
me those too are partial barre moveable chords.
Do the same with however you play a Bb chord.
Move it up to B C C# D etc.
And I'm simply not convinced that poor setup
or lack of hand strength doesn't allow people
to learn barre chords, partial or otherwise.
Barre chords simply require technique, not
vice grip like strength. If somebody didn't
show you that as a kid, perhaps that's why
it seemed rough to you. But I see plenty
of kids with cheap guitars playing full
barre chords. I did it on a cheap Japanese
drednaught with Black Diamond strings when
I was 5 years old. I certainly didn't have
Arnold-like strength. But I had teachers
that taught me how to use leverage.
I tend to not separate E Em Em7 E7 etc
as "different chords". There's typically
one note difference but the shape is exactly
the same. My practical reason for considering
those chords the same works like this -
Say Joe Newbee learned three chords D C G.
We all know that's SHA in the key of G.
So now say he learned the variants of those
chords Dm D7 Dm7 DM7 etc. That doesn't really
give him any "new chords" to work with. He's
still got D C and G, he's just got some minors
and 7ths. I suppose in the most strict sense
he would have TWO chords, D and Dm. The natural extentions
to those chords (7ths etc) don't change the basic function
of the chord. That kid might have learned 15 different
"chords" but actually what he has is D C and G with
5 variants each. He still can't play an F or a Bb or
an E.
So big picture, "I've memorized 1000 different chords".
Ok, great. Can you play Bbm7?
"No, that's not one of the chords I've memorized".
That doesn't seem very practical.
Compare that to -
"Yeah, that's like an Am7 on the 5th fret but
moved up one fret. I'm a little weak on that full
barre version but I can play the partial version
on the first 4 strings".
Or look at it like this -
Even IF it did take significant strength to play
barre chords, it's not like becoming an olympic
weight lifter. You can train your hand to have
more strength ('specially when you're a youngin')
in a few days. And again, I'm not convinced that
it's unusual strength that's needed.
Learn a Barre E shape on about the 7th fret.
If it's fuzzy today, work it for 60 seconds at
a time, three times a day. In a week you'll wonder
what the problem was last week.
Lumpy
You played on "The Love Boat"?
Yes. White tux, huge sideburns.
www.LumpyMusic.com
Agree, mostly.
I really don't count all those as separate chords. But I don't think
the OP "books with 1000's of chords" are any less generous about
counting the same chord form played at different positions as
'separate', either.
The barre chords did give me fits, however. Since it was so long ago,
it's hard to pin down as to why, whether it was bad setup, no lessons,
whatever.
I did take a few lessons at one point; I believe it was after I had
learned the barre chords. The guy just wanted me to play scales.
Fast.
And over and over.
No songs.
No exercises, other than the scales.
No "cool riffs".
Just keep practicing those scales. Once you can play them real fast,
we'll move on.
It got old in a real hurry, and unfortunately at that time, in my area,
there weren't a lot of choices as far as teachers went.
So I'm sure I picked up some "bad" habits along the way.
Charmed Snark
2009-09-14 12:34:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by RichL
Post by Lumpy
Post by RichL
F chord form (both 133211 and xx3211, all the way up and down the
neck, but not barred (wrapped my thumb around the neck to get the low
root). I'll count that as 11.
I never had too much trouble with the F chord
(the xx3211 version). But it was probably the
most difficult of the "open" chords that I
learned.
Post by RichL
Post by Lumpy
Barre chords simply require technique, not
vice grip like strength.
Ah, but there are multiple places where you
can run into trouble. For me it was the
barring finger, mostly. I have a knobbly
index finger, and after 5(?) years, I'd
say that my barres have finally become
cleaner in the last yr or two.

The big breakthrough in that however was
technique related. The slight rolling of
the finger made a world of difference. The
rest was learning/strengthening the remaining
fingers so that I could do relaxed barres.

One other thing helped-- did a lot of
rhythm guitar type jammin'. You have good
reason to use a lot of barre chords this
way, and over time this helped a lot.
Post by RichL
Post by Lumpy
If somebody didn't
show you that as a kid, perhaps that's why
it seemed rough to you. But I see plenty
of kids with cheap guitars playing full
barre chords. I did it on a cheap Japanese
drednaught with Black Diamond strings when
I was 5 years old. I certainly didn't have
Arnold-like strength. But I had teachers
that taught me how to use leverage.
Everyone is a bit different. We have our own
reasons for struggling. Sure, the right insight
and work overcomes the problem. But ppl can
take different amounts of time overcoming
the challenges.
Post by RichL
Post by Lumpy
So big picture, "I've memorized 1000 different chords".
Ok, great. Can you play Bbm7?
"No, that's not one of the chords I've memorized".
That doesn't seem very practical.
I'd generally agree with that. IOW, they are
like "chord patterns" really. Then there are
the basic chords with an ornementation note
added, sometimes in and out. Technically two
chords, though I think primarily of the basic
chord in that instance (like a C chord with
the high D added on the B string).
Post by RichL
Post by Lumpy
Or look at it like this -
Even IF it did take significant strength to play
barre chords, it's not like becoming an olympic
weight lifter. You can train your hand to have
more strength ('specially when you're a youngin')
in a few days. And again, I'm not convinced that
it's unusual strength that's needed.
For me it was about developing muscle strength
where I had virtually none _and_ technique. Getting
muscles where they don't exist, takes far more than
a few days! Technique could have come quicker, I'll
agree!
Post by RichL
Post by Lumpy
Learn a Barre E shape on about the 7th fret.
If it's fuzzy today, work it for 60 seconds at
a time, three times a day. In a week you'll wonder
what the problem was last week.
Lumpy
The barre chords did give me fits, however. Since it was so long ago,
it's hard to pin down as to why, whether it was bad setup, no lessons,
whatever.
Yep. I also had the problem of bad tension in the back
of my neck when I attempted something difficult on the
guitar. I don't get much of that anymore, but in the
beginning this was a real problem for me.

We all have different challenges. Somehow, we must
find the ways to overcome.

So I don't think you can put everyone into the "you
can do it in a week or your money back" mold Lump.
Post by RichL
The guy just wanted me to play scales.
Fast.
And over and over.
No songs.
No exercises, other than the scales.
No "cool riffs".
Just keep practicing those scales. Once you can play them real fast,
we'll move on.
It got old in a real hurry, and unfortunately at that time, in my area,
there weren't a lot of choices as far as teachers went.
So I'm sure I picked up some "bad" habits along the way.
You didn't want to become a scale shredder? ;-)

Snark.
Lumpy
2009-09-14 15:00:13 UTC
Permalink
Charmed Snark wrote:
[barre chords]
Post by Charmed Snark
One other thing helped-- did a lot of
rhythm guitar type jammin'. You have good
reason to use a lot of barre chords this
way, and over time this helped a lot.
I think that, what you mention above, is the
most important aspect of anybody "learning"
barre chords. There is rarely a time when
we have to play six notes, all clean, all
sustaining for several seconds, barre chord
or otherwise. Even in jazz chord-melody, we're
typically not expecting to cleanly execute six
notes barred with one finger. Yet a lot of people
seem to measure their success with barre chords by
clamping down on one shape for 60 seconds and repeatedly
arp'ing it, hoping that it will magically "get clean".
When it's not clean, they clamp further and further
till eventually, they take their hand off and shake
it to get rid of the cramp.

If we'd put "playing barre chords" into the perspective
of "playing songs" (sound familiar?) then we'd likely
find that "Hey, for the amount of time that I need to
make this part of the song sound like a Bb chord, I
can do that on the 6th fret.
Post by Charmed Snark
So I don't think you can put everyone into the "you
can do it in a week or your money back" mold Lump.
I think you can. I really do. If you don't get the
instruction/help/insight/bolt of lightning that
puts it all in perspective, the process might
take longer. But I have to think that any human
without some kind of pathology (missing fingers etc)
can be shown how to play a barre chord in just
a few minutes and make it second nature in
just a few days.

FWIW, I typically teach people to play barre chords
with the thumb NOT touching the back of the neck.
That forces them to NOT try and act like a vice grip.


Lumpy

You played on "The Love Boat"?
Yes. White tux, huge sideburns.

www.LumpyMusic.com
Charmed Snark
2009-09-14 16:04:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lumpy
There is rarely a time when
we have to play six notes, all clean, all
sustaining for several seconds, barre chord
or otherwise.
True enough. I know I obsessed about that
in the beginning. Still, the chord must sound
"clean" vs some muddled "thwuang".
Post by Lumpy
clamping down on one shape for 60 seconds and repeatedly
arp'ing it, hoping that it will magically "get clean".
When it's not clean, they clamp further and further
till eventually, they take their hand off and shake
it to get rid of the cramp.
I think there is also the possibility of
promoting a guerilla grip doing barre forms
too soon. I had this problem in the first
year with open chords. Barre forms just
made matters worse. I do agree however,
that with proper instruction and guidance
on the matters could have saved me some
grief at the time.
Post by Lumpy
Post by Charmed Snark
So I don't think you can put everyone into the "you
can do it in a week or your money back" mold Lump.
I think you can. I really do.
Can I get my money back?
Post by Lumpy
If you don't get the
instruction/help/insight/bolt of lightning that
puts it all in perspective, the process might
take longer. But I have to think that any human
without some kind of pathology (missing fingers etc)
can be shown how to play a barre chord in just
a few minutes and make it second nature in
just a few days.
My knobby index finger didn't help. But I've
learned to compensate by rolling it. My g teacher
pointed that out to me (so there is the bolt of
lightning ;-)
Post by Lumpy
FWIW, I typically teach people to play barre chords
with the thumb NOT touching the back of the neck.
That forces them to NOT try and act like a vice grip.
Lumpy
THat is masochist talk ;-)

Snark.
Rufus
2009-09-12 01:19:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lumpy
Post by RichL
But someone just starting out isn't going to be able to play barre
chords and move them up and down the neck.
A lot easier to learn that than to
try and memorize 100 chords.
Five days, maybe two weeks, and anybody can
play barre chords.
Lumpy
You played on "The Love Boat"?
Yes. White tux, huge sideburns.
www.LumpyMusic.com
...yeah - what Lumpy said, for once.

I think the biggest mistake most people make when starting out is to
skrimp on the quality and setup of their first instrument to "just try
it", or "save money" - including myself. Took me a year before I
remedied that sitch.

Maybe if they bought the best they could get, they'd be playing barre
chords in an afternoon.
--
- Rufus
RichL
2009-09-12 03:40:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rufus
Post by Lumpy
Post by RichL
But someone just starting out isn't going to be able to play barre
chords and move them up and down the neck.
A lot easier to learn that than to
try and memorize 100 chords.
Five days, maybe two weeks, and anybody can
play barre chords.
Lumpy
You played on "The Love Boat"?
Yes. White tux, huge sideburns.
www.LumpyMusic.com
...yeah - what Lumpy said, for once.
I think the biggest mistake most people make when starting out is to
skrimp on the quality and setup of their first instrument to "just try
it", or "save money" - including myself. Took me a year before I
remedied that sitch.
Maybe if they bought the best they could get, they'd be playing barre
chords in an afternoon.
I think a poor setup was responsible for most of my problems. At the
time, I was teaching myself on an old archtop that my dad got me that
probably hadn't been set up for decades. I didn't even know what a
setup was back then.

I finally got myself a new Rickenbacker (in '65), playing that was a
breeze compared with the archtop.
Rufus
2009-09-12 01:15:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by RichL
Post by Lumpy
Post by Rufus
THREE chords - E form barre (root 6), A form barre (root 5), D form
barre (root 4) - and a black guitar...
Dat's what I'm talkin' a'boot.
I think those "1000 Guitar Chords" books
are pretty useless, not to mention intimidating
to someone who is just starting out.
Lumpy
You played on "The Love Boat"?
Yes. White tux, huge sideburns.
www.LumpyMusic.com
But someone just starting out isn't going to be able to play barre
chords and move them up and down the neck.
...why not? Those were the first chords I learned...
--
- Rufus
RichL
2009-09-12 03:41:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rufus
Post by RichL
Post by Lumpy
Post by Rufus
THREE chords - E form barre (root 6), A form barre (root 5), D form
barre (root 4) - and a black guitar...
Dat's what I'm talkin' a'boot.
I think those "1000 Guitar Chords" books
are pretty useless, not to mention intimidating
to someone who is just starting out.
Lumpy
You played on "The Love Boat"?
Yes. White tux, huge sideburns.
www.LumpyMusic.com
But someone just starting out isn't going to be able to play barre
chords and move them up and down the neck.
...why not? Those were the first chords I learned...
I'm not sure if you're "normal" in that respect ;-)
Rufus
2009-09-12 18:22:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by RichL
Post by Rufus
Post by RichL
Post by Lumpy
Post by Rufus
THREE chords - E form barre (root 6), A form barre (root 5), D form
barre (root 4) - and a black guitar...
Dat's what I'm talkin' a'boot.
I think those "1000 Guitar Chords" books
are pretty useless, not to mention intimidating
to someone who is just starting out.
Lumpy
You played on "The Love Boat"?
Yes. White tux, huge sideburns.
www.LumpyMusic.com
But someone just starting out isn't going to be able to play barre
chords and move them up and down the neck.
...why not? Those were the first chords I learned...
I'm not sure if you're "normal" in that respect ;-)
I think it all depends on where you grew up...there were a number of
beginners on my dorm floor, mixed in with a number of guys that had been
playing for some time - electric rockers mostly, but some acoustic
folkie types too.

Most if not all of the rockers passed barre chords on to us beginners
from the outset...the folkies filled in the open forms, but not very
many of them - G, E, C, A, D and the minor forms of E and A...which was
just enough for me to get the relationship between open and barre forms.

...but after getting the hang of playing an E form barre, playing an F
was a no-brainer - particularly once I picked up on just letting my
index finger hang off behind the nut. I used to love playing blues in
F# for some reason...

I still tend to play an F that way if I'm sliding barres up and down the
neck...otherwise I'll grab it "conventionally" - depending on what the
next change is...I think in terms of "anchor notes" in making changes to
minimize moving my hand and make changes quickly. For ex. - C to F lets
me "anchor" my index finger on the 1st fret/2nd string, and I only have
to move two fingers to make the change.
--
- Rufus
Sheldon
2009-09-11 04:32:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@earthlink.net
I've heard mentioned that if you can get a few chords under your belt
you
can strum along to a whole mess of songs.
So, what are the chords that fit this statement? I've seen books with
1000's of chords, but seriously, I bet with 5-10 chords you can do a
lot.
thx - Craig
It's not the chords but the order you play them. As another poster said,
many, many rock and blues songs are based on a I, IV, V progression. This
means you start with any chord, lets take A, and then count up IV to D, then
go to V, E. You can experiment with minor chords and seventh chords,
usually on the IV and V. So, you can start with any chord, and just count
up to get a progression. When you get to G start over at A.

To take the work out of it, take a look at a Circle of Fifths.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_of_fifths Find a chord, usually the
"key," and circle left and right one note (chord). All three chords will
sound good together.
Loading...