Guitar Method books: Mel Bay or William Leavitt? Or both?

[Frank H]

Hi,

Been (hack-)playing for years, tired of my rut, determined to get
serious about learning how to play and read properly, no time for
lessons, narrowed it down to two oft-recommended guitar method options:

1. Mel Bay's Modern Guitar Method
http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/ASIN/0786664142/ref=ord_cart_shr/701-1919661-7878705?%5Fencoding=UTF8&m=A3DWYIK6Y9EEQB

2. William Leavitt's Modern Method for Guitar
http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/ASIN/0876390114/ref=ord_cart_shr/701-1919661-7878705?%5Fencoding=UTF8&m=A3DWYIK6Y9EEQB

Anyone had experience with either of these? Think I'd benefit equally
from either? Or both?

Thanks in advance.
- Frank

[Jack Wagner]

I've actually got them both.

Personally if you're just starting out I would recommend the Mel Bay
book, but if you've been working at it for a little while (as you
stated) then I think the Leavitt book would serve you better.

IIRC (it's been a while since I've looked at it) the Mel Bay book never
gets out of the first position, which is okay for raw beginners or
people who just want to learn campfire songs, but otherwise limiting.
The Leavitt book deals position playing at about page 60 IIRC.

Be warned though, Leavitt uses all original material, lots of Etudes
and stuff that could easily bore the pants off you, depending on your
tastes, but if you work your way through that book you'll be well on
your way to being an accomplished player.

[Frank H]

Post by Jack Wagner
if you've been working at it for a little while (as you
stated) then I think the Leavitt book would serve you better.

Thank you Jack, your advice is much appreciated.

Post by Jack Wagner
Be warned though, Leavitt uses all original material, lots of Etudes
and stuff that could easily bore the pants off you, depending on your
tastes, but if you work your way through that book you'll be well on
your way to being an accomplished player.

I'm ready to add some much-needed discipline to my practicing, so I
don't mind the risk of boredom. Besides, my tastes are pretty broad,
and my focus is on learning proper technique rather than specific songs
or styles. As long as he doesn't make me play any Britney Spears I
should be okay :-)

[mickey]

Post by Frank H
Been (hack-)playing for years, tired of my rut, determined to get
serious about learning how to play and read properly, no time for
lessons,

Yeah, I know I keep harping on this one...my own personal experience.

Frank, if you don't have enough time for lessons, how will you have
enough time to practice?

I tried the book approach too--I've got five or six of them lying around
here. None of them got me out of my rut, I just ended up in different
ruts. Except for the current book--but that's because it's the book my
TEACHER uses.

My opinion, if you don't have much time, and don't want to waste your
time, get lessons.

Books might be useful for an already accomplished guitarist looking to
tinker in a new style. And they're definitely helpful as a learning tool
when accompanied by a teacher. But for DIY, well, you have to be very
disciplined to use a book. And if you can't find the discipline to carve
out half an hour a week to get to your lessons (okay, an hour with
travel), then you definitely don't have the discipline to work alone.

If you're serious, get lessons.

[Frank H]

Post by mickey
Frank, if you don't have enough time for lessons, how will you have
enough time to practice? ...
If you're serious, get lessons.

Hmmm. You make some really good points, mickey, thanks. I agree that
lessons are the best approach - like having a coach or personal trainer
to accelerate and guide your learning. Unfortunately my current
crazy-busy schedule leaves me no time during hours when most people give
lessons.

So for now, my plan is to schedule 30-45 minutes a day, between 11 pm
and midnight, to start learning from a guitar method book. Not ideal, I
agree, but a start anyway - until life during normal commerce hours gets
a bit less crazy and I can find a good teacher.

[Elena Garrulo]

Post by Frank H
So for now, my plan is to schedule 30-45 minutes a day, between 11 pm
and midnight, to start learning from a guitar method book. Not ideal, I
agree, but a start anyway - until life during normal commerce hours gets
a bit less crazy and I can find a good teacher.

I don't know your skill level. If you have learned on your own and never got some lessons,
then my advice is: get a video so *at least* you can see a teacher showing the recommended
posture and techniques.

[Frank H]

Post by Elena Garrulo
my advice is: get a video so *at least* you can see a teacher
showing the recommended posture and techniques.

Thanks for the recommendation, Elena. I always wondered if videos were
a good way to learn - I'll look for some as I go along.

[Elena Garrulo]

Post by Frank H
I always wondered if videos were
a good way to learn - I'll look for some as I go along.

I'm talking about videos which focuse deeply on technique. Only one out of three videos I own
has been useful. I have recommended it on the "Beginner books" thread.

[mark (sixstringtheoryDOTcom)]

Post by Frank H

Post by Elena Garrulo
my advice is: get a video so *at least* you can see a teacher showing
the recommended posture and techniques.

Thanks for the recommendation, Elena. I always wondered if videos were
a good way to learn - I'll look for some as I go along.

Whatever you do, don't pay attention to Mel Bay's son's hands in the Mel
Bay Modern Guitar video/DVD. The guy has the audacity to fret the
strings smack dab in the middle between two frets instead of directly
behind the fret! I couldn't believe it when I saw it.

I'm using the Mel Bay book strictly to learn to read. I like it a lot
but it requires a lot of discipline and the only reason I started using
it was because my teacher required me to read and after 4 months of
intense study it has paid great dividends already. If you're practicing
solely by yourself with no teacher due to time then I'd seriously
consider an online teacher like vision music or something like that.

mark
www.sixstringtheory.com

[Nil]

On 18 Mar 2005, "mark (sixstringtheoryDOTcom)"

Post by mark (sixstringtheoryDOTcom)
Whatever you do, don't pay attention to Mel Bay's son's hands in
the Mel Bay Modern Guitar video/DVD. The guy has the audacity to
fret the strings smack dab in the middle between two frets instead
of directly behind the fret! I couldn't believe it when I saw it.

You're kidding, I hope. I've been playing that way for almost 40 years
and it hasn't hurt me yet, although it might at any moment.

I've been through the Leavitt series exensively and repeatedly. They
are very good, but I think they are best used in conjunction with a
live teacher. They are not really organized in such a way as to be a
good DIY method.

[Frank H]

Post by Nil
I've been through the Leavitt series exensively and repeatedly. They
are very good, but I think they are best used in conjunction with a
live teacher. They are not really organized in such a way as to be a
good DIY method.

That's too bad, I've heard a lot of good things about this series. I'm
actually going to try to get to a music bookstore this aft to have a
look at it. So if I just started at the beginning and worked my way
through it, it wouldn't make sense to me without a teacher?

[m***@yahoo.com]

Frank I have both books you're talking about. If you already can read
music, as I could when I started playing guitar, you might like the
Leavitt books. I bought them both on the day I bought my guitar, and
self-taught for about 6 months before getting a teacher.

IMO neither series really have enough "words" to describe what's going
on, so it's easier with a teacher. For instance, there are some etudes
and exercises in the Leavitt book that have your fingers in a chord
position, but don't indicate what chord it is. For me, as a real
beginner, having the chord names written above the music as is in the
Bay books helped a lot.

I ended up working throught the Mel Bay book (vol 1) pretty quickly
(except for that darn F chord, which was a bear!) and then going back
through the Leavitt book. Now that I'm getting better at recognizing
chord shapes and the names of notes on the fretboard, it's a little
easier.

Good luck with it :-)

[Frank H]

Post by m***@yahoo.com
Frank I have both books you're talking about. If you already can read
music, as I could when I started playing guitar, you might like the
Leavitt books. I bought them both on the day I bought my guitar, and
self-taught for about 6 months before getting a teacher.
...
Good luck with it :-)

Thanks very much. I appreciate you sharing your impressions of those
books. I've decided to go get Leavitt's Book One for starters. If I
can't figure it out on my own, I guess it'll be good incentive to try to
find a teacher that can help me make sense of it. But I'm a pretty
stubborn guy, so first I'll try seeing how far I can get by sheer force
of will :-)

Also, I think they sell a version of the Leavitt book with an
accompanying CD, so if I can find that version, I'm hopeful that my ears
will help me understand what he's trying to teach whenever my brain goes
on tilt :-)

[mark (sixstringtheoryDOTcom)]

Post by Nil
On 18 Mar 2005, "mark (sixstringtheoryDOTcom)"

Post by mark (sixstringtheoryDOTcom)
Whatever you do, don't pay attention to Mel Bay's son's hands in
the Mel Bay Modern Guitar video/DVD. The guy has the audacity to
fret the strings smack dab in the middle between two frets instead
of directly behind the fret! I couldn't believe it when I saw it.

You're kidding, I hope. I've been playing that way for almost 40 years
and it hasn't hurt me yet, although it might at any moment.

I've picked up some bad habits through the years too that I didn't think
"hurt me" but eventually hit a wall. Mostly with my picking technique
though. I guess you've learned to compensate, but I'd imagine you must
use slightly more pressue to fret like that, which can't be a good thing
if you're looking to increase speed and play with less tension.

To each his own.

mark
www.sixstringtheory.com

[Nil]

On 19 Mar 2005, "mark (sixstringtheoryDOTcom)"

Post by mark (sixstringtheoryDOTcom)
I've picked up some bad habits through the years too that I didn't
think "hurt me" but eventually hit a wall. Mostly with my picking
technique though. I guess you've learned to compensate, but I'd
imagine you must use slightly more pressue to fret like that,
which can't be a good thing if you're looking to increase speed
and play with less tension.

Well, I've had many lessons from many teachers, and nobody has ever
mentioned to me that you're not supposed to press the string mid-way
between the frets. This is an entirely new concept to me - I've never
heard anyone state or write this before. I don't see that it would take
any more effort in that position than closer to the fret. I don't
consider myself to be a particularly player, nor is that a goal of
mine, but I don't feel like that's my personal bottleneck. I don't
believe this particular point of technique is something anyone should
be overly concerned about.

Post by mark (sixstringtheoryDOTcom)
To each his own.

I guess so.

[b***@yahoo.com]

Well, I've had many lessons from many teachers, and nobody has ever
mentioned to me that you're not supposed to press the string mid-way
between the frets. This is an entirely new concept to me - I've never
heard anyone state or write this before. I don't see that it would take

any more effort in that position than closer to the fret. I don't
consider myself to be a particularly player, nor is that a goal of
mine, but I don't feel like that's my personal bottleneck. I don't
believe this particular point of technique is something anyone should
be overly concerned about.

Carlos Santana frets notes everywhere he can between two frets. Jeff
Beck and Eric Johnson too, the spots give different tambres, near the
fret, in the middle etc. Too many people are hung up on rules.

Eric

[Warren W. Gay VE3WWG]

Post by Nil
Well, I've had many lessons from many teachers, and nobody has ever
mentioned to me that you're not supposed to press the string mid-way
between the frets. This is an entirely new concept to me - I've never
heard anyone state or write this before. I don't see that it would take
any more effort in that position than closer to the fret. I don't
consider myself to be a particularly player, nor is that a goal of
mine, but I don't feel like that's my personal bottleneck. I don't
believe this particular point of technique is something anyone should
be overly concerned about.
Carlos Santana frets notes everywhere he can between two frets. Jeff
Beck and Eric Johnson too, the spots give different tambres, near the
fret, in the middle etc. Too many people are hung up on rules.
Eric

The only place I have seen a reference so far to this, is in
the forming of barre chords. I don't recall exactly where -
perhaps in the book David Mead book:

http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/ASIN/186074432X/qid=1111426715/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_0_1/701-7168566-6402768

It was suggested that the finger forming the barre,
should be placed closer to the fret so
that you won't need as much finger pressure to create a
"clean barre". Beyond that, I can't imagine that it makes
much difference.

I have made an observation in my own learning process however,
and that is, when you are starting out and using light guage
strings, it is very easy to apply too much pressure on the string,
and thus detune it (the open strings remain "unstretched" and thus
don't harmonize well with the fingered [streched] ones).

This can make a guitar that has proper intonation sound bad
for the chords that the beginner might apply too much finger
pressure on. I found that with time (more practice),
these problem chords [out of tune] became more accurate,
because my left hand was more relaxed.

Once I got used to the light strings (0.009s), I then moved
up to the 0.010s with a 2-3 week adjustment period. They now
feel normal to me, and I find that they "sound" better and
more accurate (less susceptable to unwanted stretching).

Warren.

[Frank H]

Post by mark (sixstringtheoryDOTcom)
If you're practicing
solely by yourself with no teacher due to time then I'd seriously
consider an online teacher like vision music or something like that.

Thanks Mark, just searched and found
http://www.visionmusic.com/lessonsbymail.html - very cool concept.
Might fit perfectly with my "learn-late-at-night" plan.