What is Dm7-C-Bb-A7 in the NNS?

[m***@webtv.net]

That's the beginning chord progression
for "Sultans of Swing".

I'm just wondering, how would the NNS
(Nashville Number System) describe it?

[Stephen Calder]

Post by m***@webtv.net
That's the beginning chord progression
for "Sultans of Swing".
I'm just wondering, how would the NNS
(Nashville Number System) describe it?

In the key of D minor, this would be:

i7 VII VI V7

Note that in the natural minor scale the V chord would normally be
represented as v (giving A minor(7) rather than the A(7) we have here).
The song appears to "borrow" the V7 chord from the melodic D minor scale.

[Lumpy]

Post by Stephen Calder

Post by m***@webtv.net
That's the beginning chord progression
for "Sultans of Swing".
I'm just wondering, how would the NNS
(Nashville Number System) describe it?

i7 VII VI V7

Nash = Arabic numbers, not Roman


Lumpy
--
In Your Ears for 40 Years
www.lumpymusic.com

[Stephen Calder]

Post by Lumpy

Post by Stephen Calder

Post by m***@webtv.net
That's the beginning chord progression
for "Sultans of Swing".
I'm just wondering, how would the NNS
(Nashville Number System) describe it?

i7 VII VI V7

Nash = Arabic numbers, not Roman
Lumpy
--
In Your Ears for 40 Years
www.lumpymusic.com

Then it would be

1m7 7 6 57

where 57 = a seventh chord in this case, not a m7.

Using roman numerals gives a more consistent and easier way to specify
chords with extensions. Nashville numbers (Arabic) could be confusing
here, because they may imply that 57 is Am7 in the key of Dm.

Nashville numbers seem most suitable when a song is in one key and uses
simple chords without extensions.

[m***@webtv.net]

Thanks Stephen!


Care to give the NNS for another song progression?

How about "House of the Rising Sun"?

Am-C-D-F-Am-C-E7

[Stephen Calder]

Post by m***@webtv.net
Thanks Stephen!
Care to give the NNS for another song progression?
How about "House of the Rising Sun"?
Am-C-D-F-Am-C-E7

I guess you want this for the other beginners, not for you.

I'm giving it in roman numerals so it's clearer which are minor and
which are major chords. Capitals for major, small roman for minor.

i - III - VI - i - III - V7

Note that the V chord in this key would normally be represented as a
minor. The E7 chord uses the notes of the harmonic A minor scale, which
sharpens the seventh note to G#.

[m***@webtv.net]

Stephen wrote:

" I guess you want this for the other beginners, not for you.

I'm giving it in roman numerals so it's clearer which are minor and
which are major chords. Capitals for major, small roman for minor.

i - III - VI - i - III - V7

Note that the V chord in this key would normally be represented as a
minor. The E7 chord uses the notes of the harmonic A minor scale, which
sharpens the seventh note to G#. "

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


We're all beginners, in one sense or another.

I CAN work out what's what if it's in one key but the E7 (as you
explain) doesn't fit in the regular A minor scale. (and key as well?)

Is a harmonic minor scale considered a key, or does that only apply to
the major/relative minor scales?


And roman numerals work for me, (for spelling out progressions) though I
do prefer:

Im - III - VI - Im - III - V7

But either way is fine.


The arabic numerals are used for scales and intervals. (you probably
know this)



Btw, The "Sultans of Swing" progression is:
Dm - C - Bb - A7 (Im - VII - VI - V7) and not
Dm7 - C - Bb - A7. (my bad)

How about the NNS for the rest of it?
(only one extra chord)

The rest is: F - C - Bb - Dm - Bb - C

So that'd be: III - VII - VI - Im - VI - VII
in NNS, right?

[Stephen Calder]

Post by m***@webtv.net
" I guess you want this for the other beginners, not for you.
I'm giving it in roman numerals so it's clearer which are minor and
which are major chords. Capitals for major, small roman for minor.
i - III - VI - i - III - V7
Note that the V chord in this key would normally be represented as a
minor. The E7 chord uses the notes of the harmonic A minor scale, which
sharpens the seventh note to G#. "
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
We're all beginners, in one sense or another.
I CAN work out what's what if it's in one key but the E7 (as you
explain) doesn't fit in the regular A minor scale. (and key as well?)
Is a harmonic minor scale considered a key, or does that only apply to
the major/relative minor scales?

It's a scale, which can be harmonised using the notes of that scale,
just as the either minor scales. Because the G is sharpened this gives E
major as the chord built on the E (fifth) note. The dominant seventh
then becomes E7.

Post by m***@webtv.net
And roman numerals work for me, (for spelling out progressions) though I
Im - III - VI - Im - III - V7
But either way is fine.

I prefer roman because when I see V7 I know which part is the chord and
which the extension. In arabic this would be 57, which was very
confusing to me when I first saw it. I guess it's a matter of what
you're used to.

Post by m***@webtv.net
The arabic numerals are used for scales and intervals. (you probably
know this)

In traditional music theory, yes.

Post by m***@webtv.net
Dm - C - Bb - A7 (Im - VII - VI - V7) and not
Dm7 - C - Bb - A7. (my bad)
How about the NNS for the rest of it?
(only one extra chord)
The rest is: F - C - Bb - Dm - Bb - C
So that'd be: III - VII - VI - Im - VI - VII
in NNS, right?

Yes, assuming the key of D minor as we were doing.

[Nil]

Post by m***@webtv.net
I CAN work out what's what if it's in one key but the E7 (as you
explain) doesn't fit in the regular A minor scale. (and key as
well?)

There is no such thing as a "regular minor scale" or key. There are
many flavors of minors - any scale or key that includes a minor third
is said to be minor.

A key is named after the tonic tone, that is, the note at which the
melody and harmony seem most at rest. The key can be further described
as major or minor, depending on whether its third note is a major or
minor third from the tonic, but it can otherwise include many
combinations of other notes and still be said to be in that key.

In other words, a song in A minor, can be built from notes from the A
harmonic minor, A melodic minor, or modes such as A dorian or A
phrygian, or combinations of the above and other scales.

Post by m***@webtv.net
Is a harmonic minor scale considered a key, or does that only
apply to the major/relative minor scales?

All three that you mention are scales, not keys.

[m***@webtv.net]

THANKS Nil, that was most informative.


And to correct myself;

I believe the second part of the "Sultans of Swing" progression, F - C -
Bb - Dm - Bb - C

would be: bIII - VII - VI - Im - VI - VII in NNS.
(I had the F as III)



Here's part of a progression from a Yes song that I like. (I don't
remember the song's name)

It goes:

Aadd9 - Fadd9 - Dadd9 - Add9 - Fadd9 - D
(the Dadd9 & D are played for 2 bars)

The chords are played:

Aadd9 = x-x-7-6-5-7
Fadd9 = x-x-3-2-1-3
Dadd9 = x-x-12-11-10-12
D = x-0-0-2-3-2


It seems to be in D major, so that would be:

Vadd9 - bIIIadd9 - Iadd9 - Vadd9 - bIIIadd9 - I

in NNS, right?

[Stephen Calder]

Post by m***@webtv.net
THANKS Nil, that was most informative.
And to correct myself;
I believe the second part of the "Sultans of Swing" progression, F - C -
Bb - Dm - Bb - C
would be: bIII - VII - VI - Im - VI - VII in NNS.
(I had the F as III)

Correct it back. F is III in the key of Dm (same scale notes as F).

Post by m***@webtv.net
Here's part of a progression from a Yes song that I like. (I don't
remember the song's name)
Aadd9 - Fadd9 - Dadd9 - Add9 - Fadd9 - D
(the Dadd9 & D are played for 2 bars)
Aadd9 = x-x-7-6-5-7
Fadd9 = x-x-3-2-1-3
Dadd9 = x-x-12-11-10-12
D = x-0-0-2-3-2
Vadd9 - bIIIadd9 - Iadd9 - Vadd9 - bIIIadd9 - I
in NNS, right?

Yes.

Remember, that strictly speaking, as Lumpy pointed out, NNS (Nashville
Numbering System) uses Arabic, not Roman, numerals.

[m***@webtv.net]

I previously posted:

" And to correct myself;

I believe the second part of the "Sultans of Swing" progression;

F - C - Bb - Dm - Bb - C

would be:

bIII - VII - VI - Im - VI - VII in NNS.
(I had the F as III)

====================================

Stephen replied with:

" Correct it back. F is III in the key of Dm (same scale notes as F). "

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Well, this is why I started this thread, to figure these things out
regarding NNS.

I assumed that since F is a b3rd of D, that would make it bIII in NNS.


And you're saying that NNS in a minor key is different than it is in a
major key.

SO while the major key in NNS is;

I - II - III - IV - V - VI - VII

in a minor key, NNS is different?

What would it be for a minor key then?

[Stephen Calder]

Post by m***@webtv.net
" And to correct myself;
I believe the second part of the "Sultans of Swing" progression;
F - C - Bb - Dm - Bb - C
bIII - VII - VI - Im - VI - VII in NNS.
(I had the F as III)
====================================
" Correct it back. F is III in the key of Dm (same scale notes as F). "
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Well, this is why I started this thread, to figure these things out
regarding NNS.
I assumed that since F is a b3rd of D, that would make it bIII in NNS.
And you're saying that NNS in a minor key is different than it is in a
major key.
SO while the major key in NNS is;
I - II - III - IV - V - VI - VII
in a minor key, NNS is different?
What would it be for a minor key then?

F is the flat third of D, but not of D minor.

In case you don't now about relative minor keys, each major key has a
corresponding minor key that uses the same notes, but in a different
order, giving a different step pattern.

For example

C D E F G A B C
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 (these are the scale notes)

The corresponding minor key always starts 3 semitones lower, so for C
the relative minor is A minor, which uses the same notes as the C scale
but starts on A instead of C.

A B C D E F G A
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 (these are the scale notes).

No sharps or flats in C, therefore no sharps or flats in the relative
minor, A minor. BUT notice there is a different step pattern in the
minor key. From the starting note it is 3 semitones from the start to
the third note in the scale (A to C), not four as it would be in a major
scale (C to E).

If we build chords on each of the notes in the A minor scale we get the
same chords as in the key of C, but in a different sequence:

Am Bdim C Dm Em F G A
i IIdim III iv v VI VII i

We were describing a song in the key of Dm, which is the relative minor
of F (D being three semitones below F). The scale of D minor (the
natural minor scale as opposed to the harmonic or melodic minor scales)
uses the same scale notes as the key of F. One flat in the key of F
(Bb), therefore one flat in the key of D minor (Bb).

Dm Edim F Gm Am Bb C Dm
i IIdim III iv v VI VII i


So it's important to know whether you are in a major or minor key before
transposing using the Nashville or roman numerals.

[Kernix]

I've always considered the NNS as roman numerals. If the people in
Nashville use arabic instead of roman then I'm all for ditching the NNS
as an inferior method. It would get really sloopy when you have quick
changes from 11th's to 13th's to 6 add9's, sus's, etc.

F is always the b3rd in relation to D regardless if you're in a Dm key
or any other scale that has D & F natural.

Dm7-C-Bb-A7 in the in Roman Numerlas is not i7 VII VI V7 - C is the
bVII not the VII, and the Bb is the bVI to Dm. It should be:

i7 - bVII - bVI - V7 - a mix between D Natural Minor and D
Harmonic/Melodic minor with the A7

How about "House of the Rising Sun"?

Post by m***@webtv.net
Am-C-D-F-Am-C-E7

i - bIII - IV - bVI - I - bIII - V7 - a combo of A Natural Minor, and A
Melodic Minor

All you have to do is learn the C Major/A Natural Minor scales inside
out and you'll be able to figure that stuff out yourself. It's actually
pretty easy once you learn the basics. Learn how to build basic chords
(maj, min, sus, dim, aug), and how to build ALL the chords in C major
(including 7th's, 9th's, 11th's, 13th's, add9's, 6's, 6 add9's,
add9/11, etc.)

Jim

[Lumpy]

Post by Kernix
I've always considered the NNS as roman numerals.
If the people in Nashville use arabic instead
of roman then I'm all for ditching the
NNS as an inferior method...

NNS is not very intuitive. But it is indeed
in Arabic numbers. Typical I vi ii V progression
in Roman numerals, if written in NNS would be
1 6 27 57.

Roman numeral analysis has been around for
a few hundred years. NNS has been around for
only about 50 years.


Lumpy
--
In Your Ears for 40 Years
www.lumpymusic.com

[Kernix]

Well, you learn something new everyday. Why would anyone prefer arabic
#'s over roman numerals? What's the big deal over NNS? Did the
Nashville players use them for some reason other than roman numerals?
Don't get it.

[Lumpy]

Post by Kernix
Well, you learn something new everyday. Why would
anyone prefer arabic #'s over roman numerals?
What's the big deal over NNS? Did the Nashville
players use them for some reason other than roman
numerals? Don't get it.

The system was conceived by one of the Jordanaires.
I think that as he originally wrote it, all the numbers (Arabic)
were MAJ chords. So in the key of C, 1 is C (Maj), 2 is
D (Maj) etc. But as classical and jazz musicians began
mixing with the country guys in Nashberg, the systems
got mixed so that the 2 chord tended to mean Dm, as
you would expect. As those other musos mixed with the
Nashcats, the roman numerals as well as the upper/lower
case Maj/min thing probably began mixing as well.

The original NNS was pretty much cocktail napkin stuff.
A muso would jot down some numbers on a paper and it
would include measure markings. It wasn't originally
written above a typical score or lyric sheet. I think
there's some kind of ascii tab system that's similar
but I don't do much tab so I don't know the name of
it. Not Tabledit but the other popular one, maybe.
You guys that do tab will know what I'm talking about.

Pop music has been written in Roman numerals since
at least the early 20th century. Prior to that,
classical/romantic/renaissance music (the pop
music of the day) was also notated in Romans.

But the need for chord notation in the 19th and
earlier centuries was pretty limited. There weren't
a lot of polyphonic instruments. Guitars, lutes etc
were primarily classical instruments. They didn't
notate chords as we know them (G7, Am etc). There
were probably guitars or similar instruments playing
folk music but they were probably not working from
any kind of written score with chord symbols. They
were probably "playing on ye olde porch with grandpa".

Keyboards (pianos, organs and harpsichords) and
harps were the only other instruments that could
play polyphonic (more than one note at a time). And
they didn't read chord symbols like we do now, they
read dots on the page, or figured bass pipe organ
music.

So the concept of "Chord Symbols" is relatively new
in musical notation. It developed essentially because you
and I came along and wanted to strum our guitars
while singing Margaritaville and Sweet Home Alabama.


Lumpy
--
In Your Ears for 40 Years
www.lumpymusic.com

[Joseph Albano]

Post by Lumpy
So the concept of "Chord Symbols" is relatively new
in musical notation. It developed essentially because you
and I came along and wanted to strum our guitars
while singing Margaritaville and Sweet Home Alabama.

There is some evidence that suggests "Chord Symbols" such as C, Am, G7,
and so on, may have been intended originally to convey the chords to
amateur ukulele players. The first appearance of Chord Symbols roughly
coincides with the rising popularity of the uke dating back to just
before 1920. Early sheet music from that period contains chord symbols
accompanied by uke diagrams.

[Stephen Calder]

Post by Kernix
Well, you learn something new everyday. Why would anyone prefer arabic
#'s over roman numerals? What's the big deal over NNS? Did the
Nashville players use them for some reason other than roman numerals?
Don't get it.

They never learned roman numerals in Nashville.

[Stephen Calder]

Post by Kernix
I've always considered the NNS as roman numerals. If the people in
Nashville use arabic instead of roman then I'm all for ditching the NNS
as an inferior method. It would get really sloopy when you have quick
changes from 11th's to 13th's to 6 add9's, sus's, etc.
F is always the b3rd in relation to D regardless if you're in a Dm key
or any other scale that has D & F natural.
Dm7-C-Bb-A7 in the in Roman Numerlas is not i7 VII VI V7 - C is the
i7 - bVII - bVI - V7 - a mix between D Natural Minor and D
Harmonic/Melodic minor with the A7
How about "House of the Rising Sun"?

Post by m***@webtv.net
Am-C-D-F-Am-C-E7

i - bIII - IV - bVI - I - bIII - V7 - a combo of A Natural Minor, and A
Melodic Minor
All you have to do is learn the C Major/A Natural Minor scales inside
out and you'll be able to figure that stuff out yourself. It's actually
pretty easy once you learn the basics. Learn how to build basic chords
(maj, min, sus, dim, aug), and how to build ALL the chords in C major
(including 7th's, 9th's, 11th's, 13th's, add9's, 6's, 6 add9's,
add9/11, etc.)
Jim

You make the assumption that the major scale is the only one there is.
But if you're in a minor key and want to transpose to another minor key,
it's quite legitimate to call the III chord (C in A minor) a III and not
a bIII.

[m***@webtv.net]

Stephen wrote:

" F is the flat third of D, but not of D minor. "

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Ah, but F IS the b3rd of D. (minor or otherwise)

It's 3 half-steps up from D, which is what a
b3rd is. (again, in a minor or major key)

We may be thinking of it differently though.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Stephen wrote:

" In case you don't now about relative minor keys, each major key has a
corresponding minor key that uses the same notes, but in a different
order, giving a different step pattern.

For example

C D E F G A B C
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 (these are the scale notes)

The corresponding minor key always starts 3 semitones lower, so for C
the relative minor is
A minor, which uses the same notes as the C scale but starts on A
instead of C.

A B C D E F G A
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 (these are the scale notes). "

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I know enough theory to be aware of the relative minor to major scale
relationship. (thanks anyways)

The Arabic numerical system doesn't
name the minor scale that way though.
(that I'm aware of)

It would be;

A B C D E F G A
1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 8

That's why I question whether the F in D minor would be III or bIII. (in
Roman number system)

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Stephen wrote:

" No sharps or flats in C, therefore no sharps or flats in the relative
minor, A minor. BUT notice there is a different step pattern in the
minor key. From the starting note it is 3 semitones from the start to
the third note in the scale (A to C), not four as it would be in a major
scale (C to E).
If we build chords on each of the notes in the A minor scale we get the
same chords as in the key of C, but in a different sequence:
=A0
Am Bdim =A0 =A0 C =A0 Dm =A0 Em =A0 F =A0 G =A0 A
=A0i =A0 IIdim =A0 III =A0 iv =A0 =A0 v =A0 VI =A0VII i

We were describing a song in the key of Dm, which is the relative minor
of F (D being three semitones below F). The scale of D minor (the
natural minor scale as opposed to the harmonic or melodic minor scales)
uses the same scale notes as the key of F. One flat in the key of F
(Bb), therefore one flat in the key of D minor (Bb).

Dm =A0 Edim =A0 F =A0 Gm Am =A0 Bb =A0 C =A0 Dm
=A0=A0i IIdim =A0 III =A0 iv =A0 v =A0 VI VII =A0 i

So it's important to know whether you are in a major or minor key before
transposing using the Nashville or roman numerals. "

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

That's standard notation's take, with it's 'flat' keys and 'sharp' keys.
I don't think numerical systems use flats and sharps that way.

Since I prefer to think of music as a consecutive series of 12
half-steps, (or semi-tones) I don't look at any key as being flat or
sharp.

And if the Roman number system works for progressions like the Arabic
number system does for scales, it may work like this;

Im - IIdim - bIII - IVm - Vm - bVI - bVII



Here's some scales and modes written in the Arabic number system; (as
shown in an article in Guitar Player magazine by Rik Emmett)

Major/Ionian: (root)1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8(root)

Dorian Mode: (root)1-2-b3-4-5-6-b7-8(root)

Phrygian Mode: (root)1-b2-b3-4-5-b6-b7-8(root)

Lydian Mode: (root)1-2-3-#4-5-6-7-8(root)

Mixolydian Mode: (root)1-2-3-4-5-6-b7-8(root)

Aeolian Mode: (Natural/Pure/Realtive Minor scale)
(root)1-2-b3-4-5-b6-b7-8(root)

Locrian Mode: (root)1-b2-b3-4-b5-b6-b7-8(root)


Melodic Minor (ascending):
(root)1-2-b3-4-5-6-7-8(root)

Melodic Minor (descending):
(root)8-b7-b6-5-4-b3-2-1(root)

Harmonic Minor: (root)1-2-b3-4-5-b6-7-8(root)

Whole-tone: (root)1-2-3-b5-b6-b7-8(root)

Diminished: (root)1-2-b3-4-b5-b6-6-7-8(root)

[Stephen Calder]

Post by m***@webtv.net
" F is the flat third of D, but not of D minor. "
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Ah, but F IS the b3rd of D. (minor or otherwise)

I'm sorry, but if I'm playing in D minor, the chord based on the third
note of the scale is clearly F.

You're gonna play an F# chord in that key by default? Very confusing if
you do.

Post by m***@webtv.net
It's 3 half-steps up from D, which is what a
b3rd is. (again, in a minor or major key)
We may be thinking of it differently though.

Absolutely we are. The interval of a minor third is the correct
interval. The chord based on the third note of the D minor scale is F.
That makes it III.

Post by m***@webtv.net
The Arabic numerical system doesn't
name the minor scale that way though.
(that I'm aware of)
It would be;
A B C D E F G A
1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 8

Why is that note shown as b3? It must be because it assumes a major
scale by default.

Post by m***@webtv.net
That's why I question whether the F in D minor would be III or bIII. (in
Roman number system)

I guess people do it different ways. My reference is The Guitar Handbook by

[m***@webtv.net]

I previously wrote:

" A B C D E F G A
1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 8 "

===================

Stephen wrote:

" Why is that note shown as b3? It must be because it assumes a major
scale by default. "

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Yes, 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8 represents the
major scale in the number systems.

That's why C is a b3rd. (and C is 3
half-steps up from A)

[Stephen Calder]

Post by m***@webtv.net
" A B C D E F G A
1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 8 "
===================
" Why is that note shown as b3? It must be because it assumes a major
scale by default. "
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Yes, 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8 represents the
major scale in the number systems.
That's why C is a b3rd. (and C is 3
half-steps up from A)

And you were asking the group how to do it because....?

[Lumpy]

...F IS the b3rd of D. (minor or otherwise)

Not really.
F is the 3rd of D minor.
F is the flatted 3rd of D Major.

The Dm scale is D E F G A Bb C (D)
If you FLATTED the third note of the Dm
scale you would have Fb, not F (natural).


Lumpy
--
In Your Ears for 40 Years
www.lumpymusic.com

[Stephen Calder]

Post by Lumpy

...F IS the b3rd of D. (minor or otherwise)

Not really.
F is the 3rd of D minor.
F is the flatted 3rd of D Major.
The Dm scale is D E F G A Bb C (D)
If you FLATTED the third note of the Dm
scale you would have Fb, not F (natural).
Lumpy
--
In Your Ears for 40 Years
www.lumpymusic.com

Thank you.

[Kernix]

You're talking about communicating in roman numeral form:

what if a part of a song goes from Dm to F#maj (like a brief minor
section in B maj based around the iii Dm) are you going to write i -
#III, or i - III. Or are you going to argue that Dm should be expressed
as iii and the F# as V in the key of B? There are songs that based
harmonies on the dorian and phrygian mode, rather than just the natural
minor.

For proper communication F in relation to D should be bIII not III. I
can't believe anyone would consider otherwise. Same as Dm to Bb should
be written as i - bVI not i - VI, and Dn to C as i - bVII not i - VII.
What about a C going to Dm in D minor vs a 1/2 step sub slide/hammer on
of C# into Dm?

i - bVI leaves no doubt, but i-VI does - do I play a Bb maj or a B
maj. Bb would be seen more often than B, but B is a totally fine sub
leading to E or Em which could lead to A or A7 for the resolve back to
Dm. Would you really want to write i - V/ii - V/V - V, or i - V/II - II
- V7?

K.I.S.S.: i - VI - II - V7, or i - VI7 - II7 - V7

Regardless, did that dude get his answer? Plus, does any of this really
matter? Who jams with other people so unprepared that you write out #'s
(unless you're a studio musician which I am not)?

Jim

[Lumpy]

Post by Kernix
For proper communication F in
relation to D should be bIII not III...

The scale degree is related to the (duh)
degree of the SCALE. It's the SCALE that
you're currently in, not necessarily the
Major scale.

The 3rd degree of the Dm scale is F.
The 3rd degree of the DMaj scale is F#.

The flatted 3rd degree of the Dm scale is Fb.
The flatted 3rd degree of the DMaj scale is F.

Post by Kernix
... Dm to Bb should be written as i - bVI
not i - VI...

The 6th degree of the Dm scale is Bb.
The flatted 6th degree of the Dm scale is Bbb.
The triad built on the flatted 6th degree of
the Dm scale would be Bbb Db Fb.

Post by Kernix
...Dn to C as i - bVII
not i - VII...

The 7th degree of the Dm scale is C.
The flatted 7th degree of the Dm scale is Cb.

Post by Kernix
...What about a C going to Dm in D minor
vs a 1/2 step sub slide/hammer on of C# into Dm?

In the Dm scale, the C is the 7th degree - VII - i.
In the Dm scale, C# is the SHARPED 7th degree - #VII - i.

Post by Kernix
i - bVI leaves no doubt, but i-VI does -
do I play a Bb maj or a B maj...

(i - VI)
You play a chord that is built on the 6th degree of
the Dm scale. That chord is Bb D F or what we know as
a Bb triad.

Focus on the scale that you're playing in.
NOT necessarily on the Major scale.


Lumpy
--
You were the Tidy Bowl Guy?
www.lumpyvoice.org

[Kernix]

Whatever. I don't think in terms of the major scale, but in terms of
the intervals.

It's a moot point anyway if EVERYONE always plays an F in Dm when they
see III. I'm sure that will always happen if every single song out
there never temporarily leaves the key via chord subs or key
modulations.

To each his own. I'll stick with bIII if I ever need to write it out
for someone, or I get a call to show up in the studio for a quick
recording session.

Otherwise, you're arguing semantics in respect to the "Technical" and
what makes sense, and what makes sense is relative.

Next!

[m***@webtv.net]

Kernix wrote:

" Whatever. I don't think in terms of the major scale, but in terms of
the intervals. "

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I like to think in terms of the intervals OF the major scale.

That's why I like looking at music using the Roman and Arabic number
systems. That
IS how they do it. (as I understand it)

===================================

Kernix wrote:

" To each his own. I'll stick with bIII if I ever need to write it out
for someone, or I get a call to show up in the studio for a quick
recording session.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

As you should, when using the number systems.

[Stephen Calder]

Post by m***@webtv.net
" Whatever. I don't think in terms of the major scale, but in terms of
the intervals. "
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I like to think in terms of the intervals OF the major scale.
That's why I like looking at music using the Roman and Arabic number
systems. That
IS how they do it. (as I understand it)
===================================
" To each his own. I'll stick with bIII if I ever need to write it out
for someone, or I get a call to show up in the studio for a quick
recording session.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
As you should, when using the number systems.

What was all that about with questions on how to write out a progression
if you knew all along?

[Kernix]

Post by Stephen Calder
What was all that about with questions on how to write out a progression
if you knew all along?

Why are you referring to my msgs?

There's a difference of approaches here. I think in terms of intervals
as they relate to what the tonic point is.

[Stephen Calder]

Post by Kernix

Post by Stephen Calder
What was all that about with questions on how to write out a progression
if you knew all along?

Why are you referring to my msgs?

I wasn't.

Post by Kernix
There's a difference of approaches here. I think in terms of intervals
as they relate to what the tonic point is.

Chords aren't built on intervals, they're built on scale notes.

[John B]

Post by Stephen Calder

Post by Kernix
There's a difference of approaches here. I think in terms of
intervals
as they relate to what the tonic point is.

Chords aren't built on intervals, they're built on scale notes.

But when dealing with chords in a playing situation it is better
to understand them intervalically. M3, b3 or m3, m7, M7 etc.
Extremely useful way to internalize chord structure and
especially good for improvising.

It's like a chair. Just another angle to look at it from. All
angles have their usefulness.

Just my 2 cents.

JB

[m***@webtv.net]

JB wrote:

" But when dealing with chords in a playing situation it is better to
understand them intervalically. M3, b3 or m3, m7, M7 etc. Extremely
useful way to internalize chord structure and especially good for
improvising. "

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

It's better than standard notation's 'it's the third letter, so it's a
third' BS, that's for sure.

[Stephen Calder]

Post by m***@webtv.net
" But when dealing with chords in a playing situation it is better to
understand them intervalically. M3, b3 or m3, m7, M7 etc. Extremely
useful way to internalize chord structure and especially good for
improvising. "
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
It's better than standard notation's 'it's the third letter, so it's a
third' BS, that's for sure.

In your opinion only.

[m***@webtv.net]

Stephen wrote:

" Chords aren't built on intervals,
they're built on scale notes. "

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

And scales ARE built on intervals,
so chords contain those intervals.

Are there any minor chords that
don't have a b3rd interval in it?

[Lumpy]

Post by m***@webtv.net
Are there any minor chords that
don't have a b3rd interval in it?

Yes. All of them.

You're stuck on a thousand ML.
You're not looking at the scale.
You're spinning into that big
empty hole of music. Next thing
you know you'll be diggin' Dylan music.


Lumpy
--
You were the Ken-L-Ration St Bernard?
Yes. My dog's bigger.
www.lumpyvoice.net

[Stephen Calder]

Post by m***@webtv.net
" Chords aren't built on intervals,
they're built on scale notes. "
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
And scales ARE built on intervals,
so chords contain those intervals.
Are there any minor chords that
don't have a b3rd interval in it?

Irrelevant. The question is, what notes of the A minor scale are being
used to make up the chords in that key?

[Kernix]

There are way too many stupid things said in here. Where to start?
Communicate how ever you want to communicate. But it's simple - if you
see i7-III in say C do you play Cm7-Eb or Cm7-E. Both work. A maj bIII
chord work for a major or minor tonic chord, as does the III. But which
one do you play? If you say always "Eb", then you will be wrong
whenever it should be "E".

As for the other nonsense - not worth commenting on.

I say "potato" and you say "potato." You say III is the b3, I say bIII
is the flat 3. The difference is - I'm right :-)

Jim

[Lumpy]

...if you see i7-III in say C do you
play Cm7-Eb or Cm7-E...

First off, in the key of C, there is not
a "i" chord unless it's a deliberate alteration.
It would be a "I" chord, the major triad C E G = C.

If it's in the key of Cm, then the III chord would
be an EbMaj because there is not an E chord in the
key of Cm, only an Eb.

Cminor scale:

C D Eb F G Ab Bb C
^ ^ ^ = Eb
Third degree of the Cm scale is Eb.
Chord built on that third degree is
Eb G Bb or the triad we know as EbMaj.

An E chord is E G# B, none of which
are in the key of Cm.

Or to look at it from the C Maj key.

C D E F G A B C
^ ^ ^ ^ = CM7
The first degree of the C scale is C.
The seventh chord built on that degree is C E G B.
That is the chord we call CMaj7, not Cm7.

C D E F G A B C
^ ^ ^ = Em
The third degree of the CMaj scale is E.
The chord built on that note in that key
is E G B or what we know as Em, NOT EMaj
or EbMaj.


Lumpy
--
You played in Lawrence Welk's Orchestra?
Yes. And Ralna was a babe. Should have
left Guy long ago
www.lumpyguitar.org

[Kernix]

It's C minor obviously - hence the i instead of the I. Dude, You don't
need to tell me what chords are in what scales - trust me I know.

And in choosing Eb, you are saying that you will never play a chord not
in the key of C minor? How do you account for a D maj or A maj played
for a 1/2 or whole measure in a tune in the key of C? I can't even
believe that you can't understand that. And of the notes in an Emaj
chord the B is in C melodic and C harmonic minor. Who cares if the E &
G# aren't in the key. Very rarely will you encounter a multi-chord song
that stays within one key, especially if there is a verse, chorus and
bridge.

You never heard of chord substitutes? Wow - that's sad.

Let's look at this another way. In E major - Emaj7, F#m7, G#m7, Amaj7,
B7, C#m7, D#m7b5. One thing I've noticed is the the bIII maj chord
sounds good, or in Emaj a G sounds good. How would you notate that? As
a IIII? a III in E major would G#, and would I play a G#maj or would I
have to wonder if you made a typo and it should be G#m? But I want you
to play a Gmaj - what, now you're going to say it's okay to put bIII?

You have to save your lessons for someone who needs them.

Defining the Eb in Cm as the III and not the bIII is bad communication.
But you do as you want. I don't have to play with you so it doesn't
matter.

Jim

[m***@webtv.net]

Kernix wrote:

" Defining the Eb in Cm as the III and not the bIII is bad
communication. But you do as you want. I don't have to play with you so
it doesn't matter. "

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

That's standard notation reasoning for you.

A minor third is a 3rd. :-O

[Stephen Calder]

Post by m***@webtv.net
" Defining the Eb in Cm as the III and not the bIII is bad
communication. But you do as you want. I don't have to play with you so
it doesn't matter. "
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
That's standard notation reasoning for you.
A minor third is a 3rd. :-O

Third chord in A minor is still C major.

[Kernix]

It's C in A Natural minor, but it's C+ /Cmaj#5 when basing harmonies
using chords from the Harmonic/Melodic minor scales. And you chord
argue that it can a Cm if you base a progression off of possible chords
built from the Blues scale.

But you're still talking about the view that there are no chords being
played that are not from the parent scale.

I remember looking for songs that never changed key - they're in the
minority. "Let it Be" is an example of all chords being in the key of
C, and if you pick limited chords songs like I-IV-V-IV or I-vi-IV-V
you'll find songs that don't leave the key. But there are a helluva a
lot of songs that deviate from that. If you have a valid way of dealing
with those exceptions - then good for you.

[Stephen Calder]

Post by Kernix
It's C in A Natural minor,

Exactly.

The third chord is unlikely to be anything but C in a minor scale. Very
unlikely to be C#, for example. So if you call it III you can then add
any extension you want. It's not bIII is it? Not in a minor key.


but it's C+ /Cmaj#5 when basing harmonies

Post by Kernix
using chords from the Harmonic/Melodic minor scales.

No problem. Minor key: III+ or IIImaj#5.


And you chord

Post by Kernix
argue that it can a Cm if you base a progression off of possible chords
built from the Blues scale.

No problem. Minor key: iii or IIIm.

Post by Kernix
But you're still talking about the view that there are no chords being
played that are not from the parent scale.

You can go outside the parent scale. All I'm saying is that there's a
difference between a major and a minor parent scale.

Post by Kernix
I remember looking for songs that never changed key - they're in the
minority. "Let it Be" is an example of all chords being in the key of
C, and if you pick limited chords songs like I-IV-V-IV or I-vi-IV-V
you'll find songs that don't leave the key. But there are a helluva a
lot of songs that deviate from that. If you have a valid way of dealing
with those exceptions - then good for you.

Shouldn't be too hard.

Key of C: C-E7-A7-D7-G7-C

I-III7-VI7-II7-V7-I.

C-Ab

I-bVI OR I-#V

[m***@webtv.net]

Kernix wrote:

" I say "potato" and you say "potato." You say III is the b3, I say bIII
is the flat 3. The difference is - I'm right :-) "

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I'm always amazed at the reasoning generated
by followers of standard notation.

Like their belief that a minor third isn't a b3rd.


And yes, you are right. :-)

[Stephen Calder]

Post by Kernix
There are way too many stupid things said in here. Where to start?
Communicate how ever you want to communicate. But it's simple - if you
see i7-III in say C do you play Cm7-Eb or Cm7-E.

If it's (i) rather than a (I) it's in a minor key.

That makes the III an Eb, if you want to be consistent, because that's
the third note of the scale.


Both work. A maj bIII

Post by Kernix
chord work for a major or minor tonic chord, as does the III. But which
one do you play? If you say always "Eb", then you will be wrong
whenever it should be "E".
As for the other nonsense - not worth commenting on.
I say "potato" and you say "potato." You say III is the b3, I say bIII
is the flat 3. The difference is - I'm right :-)

So when we see bIII or III in a minor key we have to guess which one is
meant?

[Kernix]

Post by Stephen Calder
So when we see bIII or III in a minor key we have to guess which one is
meant?

That's the problem - having to guess.

[Stephen Calder]

Post by Kernix

Post by Stephen Calder
So when we see bIII or III in a minor key we have to guess which one is
meant?

That's the problem - having to guess.

How to solve it?

I thought that was easy. The third chord (III) is built on the third
note of the scale. That's C major in the key of A minor. But some want
to say, no, in A the third chord is C# so you have to say bIII. They're
just not recognising the minor scale.

So I give up. Just do it your own way.

[Kernix]

You don't get it because you have no concept of chord substitutions.
Why couldn't you play a C# in a A minor harmony? No reason at all. Just
like you can play a E maj in a C major song. But, the one thing you
have not seemed to grasp or have yet to answer, is how do you notate
that scenario? As a # III - now there's a laugh.

Drop it dude - you don't get it and I'm tired of going over the same
shtuff.

[Stephen Calder]

Post by Kernix
You don't get it because you have no concept of chord substitutions.
Why couldn't you play a C# in a A minor harmony? No reason at all. Just
like you can play a E maj in a C major song. But, the one thing you
have not seemed to grasp or have yet to answer, is how do you notate
that scenario? As a # III - now there's a laugh.
Drop it dude - you don't get it and I'm tired of going over the same
shtuff.

Gladly.

[m***@webtv.net]

Lumpy wrote:

" Focus on the scale that you're playing in. NOT necessarily on the
Major scale. "

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

The Roman and Arabic number systems
happen to FOCUS on the major scale.

And F is a b3rd of D. It may happen to be
the 'third letter and tone' but it's still a b3rd.

[Lumpy]

Post by m***@webtv.net
The Roman and Arabic number systems
happen to FOCUS on the major scale.

Well, no. Sorry, they don't.

Post by m***@webtv.net
And F is a b3rd of D. It may happen to be
the 'third letter and tone' but it's still a b3rd.

ok.


Lumpy
--
You Played on Lawrence Welk?
www.lumpyguitar.net

[m***@webtv.net]

Kernix wrote:

" For proper communication F in relation to D should be bIII not III. I
can't believe anyone would consider otherwise. Same as Dm to Bb should
be written as i - bVI not i - VI, and Dn to C as i - bVII not i - VII.
What about a C going to Dm in D minor vs a 1/2 step sub slide/hammer on
of C# into Dm?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Couldn't agree more.

This 'it's the third letter so it's a III not a bIII' must be a standard
notation thing.

If there's 3 half-steps between the root (or keytone) and the 'third
letter' then it's bIII.

[Joseph Albano]

Post by m***@webtv.net
" For proper communication F in relation to D should be bIII not III. I
can't believe anyone would consider otherwise. Same as Dm to Bb should
be written as i - bVI not i - VI, and Dn to C as i - bVII not i - VII.
What about a C going to Dm in D minor vs a 1/2 step sub slide/hammer on
of C# into Dm?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Couldn't agree more.
This 'it's the third letter so it's a III not a bIII' must be a standard
notation thing.

It has nothing to do with standard notation. It has only to do with what
is logically sufficient for analysis of a certain kind of music, i. e.,
tonal music and its relationships.

Post by m***@webtv.net
If there's 3 half-steps between the root (or keytone) and the 'third
letter' then it's bIII.

This is just plain wrong! In the modern TET system where all twelve keys
have equal status, it becomes possible to have more remote
relationships. For analysis, Roman numerals are used for scale degrees
and the b or # are "reserved" for special cases in which scale degrees
must be altered. So, III is for the third step of any scale regardless
of the interval it forms with the tonic. The bIII is a special case, it
works as sort of a code to indicate that a scale degree is being
altered. In key of D minor the interval between D anf F is three half
steps but is referred to as a minor third, not a flatted third! Minor
third, because it is the third step of a MINOR scale! If you use a "b"
sign in front of the III, it indicates that the third of ANY scale is
being lowered a half step below its normal interval. So bIII would give
a false impression, i. e., that the minor third is being lowered an
additional half step.

[Stephen Calder]

Post by Joseph Albano

Post by m***@webtv.net
" For proper communication F in relation to D should be bIII not III. I
can't believe anyone would consider otherwise. Same as Dm to Bb should
be written as i - bVI not i - VI, and Dn to C as i - bVII not i - VII.
What about a C going to Dm in D minor vs a 1/2 step sub slide/hammer on
of C# into Dm?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Couldn't agree more.
This 'it's the third letter so it's a III not a bIII' must be a standard
notation thing.

It has nothing to do with standard notation. It has only to do with what
is logically sufficient for analysis of a certain kind of music, i. e.,
tonal music and its relationships.

Post by m***@webtv.net
If there's 3 half-steps between the root (or keytone) and the 'third
letter' then it's bIII.

This is just plain wrong! In the modern TET system where all twelve keys
have equal status, it becomes possible to have more remote
relationships. For analysis, Roman numerals are used for scale degrees
and the b or # are "reserved" for special cases in which scale degrees
must be altered. So, III is for the third step of any scale regardless
of the interval it forms with the tonic. The bIII is a special case, it
works as sort of a code to indicate that a scale degree is being
altered. In key of D minor the interval between D anf F is three half
steps but is referred to as a minor third, not a flatted third! Minor
third, because it is the third step of a MINOR scale! If you use a "b"
sign in front of the III, it indicates that the third of ANY scale is
being lowered a half step below its normal interval. So bIII would give
a false impression, i. e., that the minor third is being lowered an
additional half step.

Thank you.

[Nil]

Post by m***@webtv.net
Ah, but F IS the b3rd of D. (minor or otherwise)
It's 3 half-steps up from D, which is what a
b3rd is. (again, in a minor or major key)
We may be thinking of it differently though.

You are using the term differently. The third of D minor is F. The
"flat third" of D minor would be Fb (a.k.a. E).

However, the interval between D and F is described as a minor 3rd,
which you might sometimes hear (unconventionally) called a "flat 3rd".

[Lumpy]

Post by m***@webtv.net
And to correct myself;
I believe the second part of the
"Sultans of Swing" progression, F -
C - Bb - Dm - Bb - C
would be: bIII - VII - VI - Im - VI - VII in NNS.
(I had the F as III)

You guys continue to incorrectly call the roman numeral
analysys "NNS". There's some similarity but it's not
the same.

What you're doing is Roman Numeral Analysis. It's kind
of like calling a guitar a mandolin.


Lumpy
--
In Your Ears for 40 Years
www.lumpymusic.com

[m***@webtv.net]

Lumpy wrote:

" You guys continue to incorrectly call the roman numeral analysys
"NNS". There's some similarity but it's not the same.

What you're doing is Roman Numeral Analysis. It's kind of like calling a
guitar a mandolin. "

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

The following webpage says otherwise.

http://www.guitarweek.com/lessons/nashville.php


To be fair, this webpage says you can use Roman or Arabic.

http://www.ducksdeluxe.com/nashvillenumbersystem.html


But at the very least, either one CAN be used.
(and still be considered NNS)

It's NOT 'kind of like calling a guitar a mandolin'.

It's more like calling a toma(y)to a toma(h)to. :-)

[Lumpy]

Post by m***@webtv.net
" You guys continue to incorrectly
call the roman numeral analysys
"NNS". There's some similarity but it's not the same.
The following webpage says otherwise.
http://www.guitarweek.com/lessons/nashville.php
To be fair, this webpage says you can use Roman or Arabic.
http://www.ducksdeluxe.com/nashvillenumbersystem.html

I think those guys should maybe visit Nashville
before trying to write about NNS.


Lumpy
--
In Your Ears for 40 Years
www.lumpymusic.com